Pastor Ralph Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Q4. In your own words, how would you explain why circumcision is now obsolete for Christians and that baptism is now sign of the covenant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cct1106 Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 Christians do the Baptism because Jesus was baptized by John The Baptist. But the problem with baptism is that some or most congregations do not immerse the whole body like Jesus was baptized. Some baptize by sprinkling water on the top of the head and that is not how Jesus was baptized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peggysue Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 Christ died for our sins on the cross,and we have salvation through beleiving in Jesus and following Him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heatherdills Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Circumcision is now obsolete for Christians since baptism is now the sign of the covenant because women have no way of being physically circumcised. However, Jesus Christ came to redeem all of the world and every person, man or woman, can be baptised. Also, circumcision is an act of the flesh and can carry no significant meaning to the recipient because it has become a common practice, regardless of religious backgroud. Baptism requires a personal commitment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunilbernard Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Q4. In your own words, how would you explain why circumcision is now obsolete for Christians and that baptism is now sign of the covenant? Circumcision formed a ritual that was part of the Mosaic Law. It formed a physical part of the ritual. For Christians, circumcision of the heart is more required than of the body. In Christ's death, we see our sins being cut away, as in circumcision, and a new, risen from the dead (sins) body given to us. Thus physical circumcision holds no value for a Christian. Baptism of the believer is more required for a Christian as this signifies our sinful body dying and being buried and rising up with the power of the Holy Spirit. Because of the death of our Lord Jesus on the Cross, the roles have changed. The role of circumcision has been transformed into the role of baptism, which every Christian believer ought to undergo, as a witnessing point to the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Abraham was circumcised so that the gift of righteousness might be confirmed within him. But circumcision itself did not convey justification (faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness before he was circumcised) it was simply a sign, or brand, of belonging to God Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Rivera Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Q4. In your own words, how would you explain why circumcision is now obsolete for Christians and that baptism is now sign of the covenant? Baptism signifies a death of the old body and the birth of the new in Christ. As he died, was buried and rose, so do we in and through Baptism. Before Christ, people had a circumcision that signified an identity with God as his chosen people. Therefore, Baptism links us to Christ and is a sign of our new life in Him. It also signifies a work of the spirit. Colossian 2:11 states: Col 2:11: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Here is where the Spirit removes those sins that keep us apart from Christ and are against His word. Here is where self-denial comes into play. We become less and He becomes more. As we walk in our new life God's word illuminates our hearts and minds. The Holy Spirit guides us and we draw closer to Christ and reflect more of Him instead of ourselves. When we walk, others see Christ in us and our drawn to that reflection. He is the center; He receives the glory for His work in us as we share what sustains us with those attracted to us by His reflection in our lives. It is a beautiful experience. Baptism is a new beginning, a sign of obedience and a death of what is old and a birth of what is new in and through Christ. I must admit, when I was first baptized, I had no idea of its full significance and what it truly signifies. But God's word and study helped me there. My daily walk also provides the full understanding of its purpose through experiences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim E. Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 In my mind circumcision was a sign that God possessed that person. Circumcision was only for males so that limited the sign of rememberance to males. Also circumcision was performed on male infants who were 8 days old and this only evidenced the faith of the parents. Circumcision was also private. Although these things are true and this was the covenant of God and Abraham, it still holds strong imagery for us in the circumcision of the heart. I wouldn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PressThrough Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Q4. In your own words, how would you explain why circumcision is now obsolete for Christians and that baptism is now sign of the covenant? I don't have my own words. They all came from some place else. This question was answered in the exposition that came with the study, so how can I have my own words. I read the exposition before I started, and also Jesus said it in the Bible. So I have no words that are my own. Thanks for asking though. Ugggg, that kind of statement always got me good in formal school too. The teacher gives you an answer by telling you about something and then ask's a question to which the answer was already given, and say's to say it in your own words. Okay, let me see if I can say it a different way, that I thought of . When I was a teenager I thought circumcision was done to males to make cleaning it easier, to prevent infections. That must of been just kid talk/guessing or something an adult said because they really didn't know why, or maybe a Doctor told them that. Okay this is what I know about it now; that circumcision was an outward sign of/in the flesh of one's obedience in God. But wait there doesn't seem to be a choise here for those babies either. It means nothing now anyway, the same with baptizing a baby, it means nothing to the child anyway, they don't know what they are doing, the same with those in the first covenant that had it done because of who they were in relation to Abraham and it was ordered to be done, yes by God, but could it really be just for a sign of who their Abba is? To prove who they were to eachother? God knows his own regardless of circumcision. When somebody was approached did they have to drop their pants or lift their robe to prove something? I can see how the heathen took that to town. Baptism by water, also ordered by God concerning the inward man, was done by people consiously making the decision to "Follow Christ", there by dieing to/of the flesh (going under) and rising up from that death (out of the water/resurrection), leaving the Old man behind and walking hence in the New, in Truth & Love for God & Eachother, thereby the veil of darkness is dissipated. Hmmm, when Adam was made, He was made from the dust of the earth and God breathed life into him. Was blood present at that time? Eve was formed from the rib of man. The rib only or dust as well? Is this when blood came into the picture? How long were they in the garden before the fall? Did they have children while in the garden? How was the birth process done? Or did blood come into the picture after the fall when mankind was seperated from God? Why blood & the pain inflected from the shedding of it to attone for sins? (I did that study and understand the words, I'm trying to go deeper here) In my own words, I do not understand this or the pain. While in the womb, we are in a bag of water for an appointed time, sustained by a cord. Blood, Water, Earth, & Oil to keep the fire burning (that is the Holy Spirit ) What does it mean? These kinds of questions never seemed important to me so I didn't venture to go there, but could there be something here/there that if once I understand it will draw me closer to God? All's I know for sure is that I Love God with all my being, and when I transgress against my Abba I just can not stand myself and it is very hard to get over although I appear to on the outside. Why Why Why Why. I understand what God say's about it in the Bible, and I understand other's answer's to these questions in various Bible Studies. But I feel there is "More" and "That" is what I want to know. But how do I ask a question that I do not understand? If I understood what to ask, then I wouldn't need to ask. Any one here willing to go deeper? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt_Z_Squad Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 4.) In your own words, how would you explain why circumcision is now obsolete for Christians and that baptism is now sign of the covenant? 4.) A loaded question with some interesting answers. Some made reference to immersion and sprinkling.. I think we start falling into the very problem that Jesus criticized the teachers of his time on when we start worrying about which method. What happens to the poor believer in the desert? God is looking for our heart not ritual. Baptism is an act of obedience to the command of Lord Jesus. It is an outward sign, not to God but to those around you that you have claimed Lord Jesus as your King, Redeemer, and Savior. You were baptized with the Holy Spirit when you received Christ as your Savior. I have to agree with Kim E. that Jesus tells us: "Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matthew 26:27b, 28) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyBeloved Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Circumcision was given to Abraham and his descendents as a sign of the covenant that GOD made. It was not given to believers in Christ. Water baptism for the believer is a sign that we now belong to GOD our Savior and we want to walk in fellowship with Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MannyVelarde Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Well baptism of course started with the Jews, not the Christians. Remember the story of John the Baptist? It actually comes from a ritual immersion ceremony in Judaism called the mikveh. One takes this bath to finalize becoming clean after a period of uncleanliness. Baptism/immersion in the Mikveh is a symbol of conversion both in Orthodox Judaism (adopted Jewish children for instance are baptized), Messianic Judaism, and Christianity. Jesus was baptized before His ministry - John the Baptist was baptizing before Jesus came into the picture. It symbolizes the cleansing that our repentance brings. I as a believer in Jesus do not consider them equal or water baptism. Circumcision is a sign of the Abrahamic covenant that is still in effect and will be until the New Jerusalem is established. God said it was everlasting. Abraham was declared righteous BEFORE he was circumcised because of his FAITH in God. We too are righteous because of faith. Water baptism is NOT essential to faith but is an act of obedience to the divine instructions of our God. Any additional requirement to salvation is dethroning God. The thief on the cross is a prime example. Baptism is not a sign of the New Covenant - the only requirement is FAITH as really it had been since the beginning - - Abraham has faith - he is righteous. Women couldn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millie Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Jesus was Baptism before his ministry. We now belong to God because we have been Baptism. Praise the Lord, I am a new creture in Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccs Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Q4. In your own words, how would you explain why circumcision is now obsolete for Christians and that baptism is now sign of the covenant? In your own words, how would you explain why circumcision is now obsolete for Christians and that baptism is now sign of the covenant? Circumcision is now of the heart, by the Holy Spirit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alisicia Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 I find that voicing your own opinion about God's word, can lead to a lot of misunderstandings. Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. (God wanted all of Abram, he wanted a total commitment.) (2) And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiiply thee exceedingly. (3) And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, (4) As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. (5) Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a (father of many nations) have I made thee. (Abram, means father of many.) (6) And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and Kings shall come out of thee. (7) And I will establish my (covenant) between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting (covenant), to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. (8) And I will giive unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. (9) And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my (covenant) therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. (10) This is my (covenant,) which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be CIRCUMCISED. (11) And ye shall CIRCUMCISE the flesh of you foreskin; and it shall be a token of the (covenant) betwixt me and you. I also think that, because circumcision deals with the organ of procreation, it was a reminder of the special seed of Abraham that would bring the Messiah. (12) And he that is eight days old shall be CIRCUMCISED among you, every man child in your generation, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy see. (13) He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be CIRCUMCISED: and my (covenant) shall be in your flesh for an everlasting (covenant). (14) And the UNcircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not CIRCUMCISED, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Check this out, It's 400 years later and God reveals himself to Moses, Exd 3:3. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. (4) And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses, And he said, Here am I. This shows that even though Moses was now an forgotten shepherd on the back side of the desert, God knew who he was and Moses was important to him. God reveals Himself to Moses through declaring His relationship to the patriarchs (the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob); this reminds Moses that God is the God of the (covenant), and His (covenant) with Israel is still valid and important. He proceeds to tell Moses what it was that he want him to do , and how he's going to do it. Moses came up with every excuse he could think of, not to be the one sent to Egypt, to bring God's children out of bondage, slavery. Yet God remained patient with him, and sent him on his way with the help of his brother Aaron. Exd 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him. (25) Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. (26) So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the (circumcision.) How could Moses forget something so important. God sought to kill him because he didn't observe the LORD's positive command to Abraham, that every man child among you shall be CIRCUMCISED, and thou shall keep my (covenant) therefore, thou and thou seed after thee in their generations. Zipporah, at the command of Moses, immediately fulfilled the injunction, and thus averted the wrath of God. "The UNcircumcised man child, whose flesh of his foreskin is not CIRCUMCISED, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my "covenant". Then the Jews had begun to think that just because they were circumcised, they thought they were saved, and were better than the Gentiles. Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ear, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethrem, and said Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. (They were still going by the law of Moses.) Galatians 5:2 Behold, I paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. (3) For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Paul wrote in Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision (Gentiles) keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? (27) And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? (Those who are not circumcised, keep the law, they will judge you, because you have the written law and you are circumcised, and you still break the law). (28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. (29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Circumcision of the flesh, was the covenant God made with Abraham, After the death and the resurrection of Jesus, circumcision became of the heart). Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have all made to drink into one Spirit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grace Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Circumcism is obsolete because it was a temporary EXTERNAL sign in the flesh and under the law. It was only a SHADOW of that which was to come in Jesus Christ. Baptism is an act of obedience following Christ who was baptized in the river, Jordan. Baptism is a more significant sign as it indicated DYING TO THE OLD SELF and baptized into the death of Christ. Now we are no longer slaves of sin (Rom 6) but instruments of righteousness unto God under grace, having abolished the law of ordinances that was against us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helenmm Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Circumcision was a physical sign of a spiritual condition. Now that we have Jesus and His Holy Spirit to worship in spirit and in truth, it is not physical circumcision that we need. When we deeply and truly repent we are engaging in spiritual circumcision. It is then we can demonstrate this in baptism, which signifies spiritual circumcision (death to sin) and rising up into the new Life in Christ which follows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddler329 Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Q4. In your own words, how would you explain why circumcision is now obsolete for Christians and that baptism is now sign of the covenant? I have a really tough time with the idea that some of the Law can be "obsolete" while some is not. If any of it is true, then it must all be true. No one would argue that the Ten Commandments or "love the Lord your God with all your heart" are obsolete, so why should circumcision not be equally important? Having said all of that, I'd also comment that "simply" following the Law is clearly pretty useless. It's not that the Law is obsolete, it's that it has lost its meaning and power as a means of worship. ALL of the laws are still valid (including circumcision) but if we aren't already committed to observing them ourselves (by virtue of having been observant Jews before conversion) there's no need to start. Jesus has done ALL of that and more for us, and since he's now inside of us living our life and we in him and living his we don't need to DO the Law, we just need to allow his will to be our will. In a paradoxical way when we do this we are actually observing all of the Law. I'm also a little uneasy at saying that baptism is the sign of the covenant. Circumcision leaves a physical mark: that's certainly a "sign." But what "sign" does baptism leave? It's not really a sign of the covenant, just a moment of public recognition that the individual has fully accepted the covenant. I think I'm more willing to go along with the person who commented that sharing the Lord's supper is the real sign of the covenant. It does not leave a visible sign either, but at least it is something that you can participate in in community and more than just once in a lifetime. None but those who were present at my baptism can witness to that, but every time I share the bread and wine it's a true witness to my commitment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helenmm Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Circumcision was a physical sign of the covenant in the physical children of Abraham. Spiritual circumcision follows true repentance, and is signified in death to the flesh, represented by going under the waters of baptism. There is a spiritual sign of the covenant placed by God on the new person, the seal of the Holy Spirit. Those under this seal worship God in spirit and in truth, and are spiritual sons of Abraham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
June Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 MOST MALE BABIES ARE CIRCUMCISED WITHIN A COUPLE OF DAYS AFTER BIRTH TODAY . BASICALLY FOR HYGIENIC PURPOSES AND DOES NOTHING FOR THE HEART. WHEN A PERSON GETS SAVED THE HOLY SPIRIT URGES THEM TO GET BAPTIZED IN WATER AS A SIGN OF THE COVENANT WITH CHRIST, ACKNOWLEDGING THAT HE IS LORD OVER OUR LIVES. THIS IS A HEART FELT ACT AND IS DONE IN FAITH OF THE POWER OF GOD TO REDEEM THAT WHICH WAS LOST. WE IDENTIFY WITH CHRIST'S CRUCIFIXION WHEN WE ARE BAPTIZED. WE ARE THEN SPIRITUALLY CIRCUMCISED. MORE PEOPLE TODAY GET BAPTIZED THAN WOULD BE WILLING TO BE STRIPPED OF FLESH AS OUR LORD AND SAVIOR WAS, THUS BAPTISM IS ACCEPTED MORE A SIGN OF THE COVENANT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peggie Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 In your own words, how would you explain why circumcision is now obsolete for Christians and that baptism is now sign of the covenant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chobson Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 Q4= CIRCUMCISION WAS A PHYSICAL REQUIREMENT BEFORE THE MESSIAH CAME. OUR MESSIAH HAS COME AND WITH HIM HE BROUGHT A NEW COVENANT. ONE OF SPIRIT AND NOT OF FLESH THAT WAS ACCORDING TO LAW. 2 COR.3:6 "WHO ALSO MADE US SERVANTS OF A NEW COVENANT, NOT OF THE LAW, BUT OF THE SPIRIT; FOR THE LAW KILLS BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda bass Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 The sign of the old covenant was circumcision. The sign of the new covenant is baptism. The new supercedes the old. Literal circumcision was a sign in the flesh but did nothing to purify the heart. When a Christian is baptised, he identifys with Christ's crucufixion,burial,and resurrection. His heart becomes purified and he is circumsised spiritually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kas Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Circumcision of the flesh was according to the old covenant. The new covenant is Christ's blood which He shed for us. To accept this we must believe in Christ. If we believe in Christ, we must obey Him. If we obey Him we follow His example in that He was baptized to fulfill righteousness and that He commanded us to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Even though Christ died to sin, He was still baptized in water to show us that it was necessary for us to do it also. He showed us and then gave us the verbal command to do it to others. Baptism is symbolic of our fleshly death by going under water and coming out of water to our new spiritual bodies indwelled by the Holy Spirit. The water is symbolic of burial and cleansing. God's Word is also water that cleanses us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelOnLine Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Q4. In your own words, how would you explain why circumcision is now obsolete for Christians and that baptism is now sign of the covenant? When Jesus died on the cross, all of the old laws and covenants became obsolete. Now our covenant is Baptism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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