JesusWalk Bible Study Forum: Q2. Where Is God? - JesusWalk Bible Study Forum

Q2. (21:8-10) What motivates Sarah to demand Ishmael's expulsion from Abraham's family encampment? Is she righteous in this? Have you ever tried to force your spouse to act against his or her principles? Have you ever been forced yourself?

Distraught by jealousy and envy, Sarah’s anger towards Hagar has seethed for nearly seventeen years. For thirteen years Sarah watched Abraham revel in fatherhood while Sarah remained infertile.

When Ishmael behaves mockingly during Isaac’s weaning celebration, Sarah demands that Abraham cut-off Ishmael from the family—not only physically—but his rights as heir as well.

I don’t see righteousness in Sarah’s actions. Sarah’s ultimatum to Abraham is clouded by her contempt for Hagar, and her son Ishmael—not by her intent to circumcise the pagan elements of her family, nor her faith in God.

Fortunately I’ve not been in a situation where my spouse has forced me to act contrary to my principles-nor would I impose myself on another in that manner.

Pastor Ralph, on Oct 21 2004, 07:19 PM, said:

What motivates Sarah to demand Ishmael's expulsion from Abraham's family encampment?
She is jealous, hurt, and angered. . . things are not going as planned.

Is she righteous in this?
To some extent, . . . but I think she handled the situation in an immature way as well as self-righteous . . .

not wanting to take responsibility for her part in the situation that has brought it to this point. It is easier to blame someone for the rot of the world . . . rather then be submissive and accertive at the same time.

Children are children, and don’t know how to handle adult issues. So they act out in ways that are not mature. Sarah made a decision a long time ago to have children through her maid servant and now what She sowed she is reaping and not liking it!

Have you ever tried to force your spouse to act against his or her principles?
Of course I have when I am working from the flesh and running on emotions. I find I am in a much better place when I let things play out a bit . . .

Have you ever been forced yourself?
Yes, but have grown to the point of not listening to man but to the Holy Spirit and if a situation does not coincide with Him then I know I can gain strength to act on the truth and principles in which I am being trained.

learning how to act instead of react helps me to hear God’s wisdom and direction and instruction in more of a balanced way.

Q2. (21:8-10) What motivates Sarah to demand Ishmael's expulsion from Abraham's family encampment? Is she righteous in this? Have you ever tried to force your spouse to act against his or her principles? Have you ever been forced yourself?

She fears that Ishmael will inherit Abraham's possessions rather than her son. In addition, she cannot stand to see her son mistreated or scorned by the son of her handmaiden. Just seeing her maid reminds her of what she has done in getting Abraham to have a child by her maid.
No, there was no righteousness in her first not believing God when He said Abraham would have a son by Sarah and enticing him to take Hagar to bed, but getting rid of the evidence did not make her righteous--it only added to her guilt.
No, I don't think I've ever tried to get my husband to act against his principles. I have tried to get him to turn from some behavior that was contrary to how the Bible says we should act--such as his refusing to forgive someone who did something against him, but nothing against his principles.
Yes, I have been forced--such as not tithing as God says we should.

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[color="blue"]2a.) Her desire to insure that Isaac is the heir. It may also be concern for the safety of her son from Ismael who could easily harm him to insure his full inheritance.[/color]
2b.) (21:8-10)  Have you ever tried to force your spouse to act against his or her principles?
[color="blue"]2b.) No.[/color]
2c.) (21:8-10) Have you ever been forced yourself?
[color="blue"]2c.) I can't say forced but my Proverbs 31 wife is a helper and wonderful counselor. She is not afraid to confront me when I am wrong, nor is she afraid to prayer for the Holy Spirit to work in my life.[/color]

Q2. (21:8-10) What motivates Sarah to demand Ishmael's expulsion from Abraham's family encampment? Is she righteous in this? Have you ever tried to force your spouse to act against his or her principles? Have you ever been forced yourself?

Obvious motivation - jealousy - but the deep rooted problem is her "heart" problem - - she was not willing to wait on God. She wanted to make sure things were done "right - her way" As we study the word we will see it over and over again - - "taking matters into our own hands."


So much the way we are - we know God's will and desires - but He just doesn't move fast enough for us. We are good manipulators - - we all need to seek God's answers - which He always will give us
Yes - No - Wait a bit!

Pastor Ralph, on Oct 21 2004, 07:19 PM, said:

[font="Geneva"][color="blue"]Sarah seeing the two boys playing together has caused her to demand that Hagar & Ishmeal be without the camp.

Upon the first reading, it appears to me that Sarah is still jealous and vindictive, and thereby not acting in righteousness.

Looking at Types & Shadows reveals what Sarah seen from the all knowing know, as she watched them play. She saw trouble come to them all, and tried to nip it in the bud. The trouble she saw in Ishmael is the same trouble she received of Hagar when Hagar got pregnant. I don't think Sarah was upset with Hagar because she got pregnant and she couldn't yet. It was trouble, a divided kingdom/nation, perhaps only shown to Sarah through a wicked glance or guesture that only she would understand, which is why Abraham didn't do more then just cast them out (both times), he didn't know for sure because of the ranting and raving. But he wasn't suppose to know, for all that has taken place from The Fall has had to inorder for The Law To Be Fulfilled, and for us to Receive Jesus. So yes Sarah did react righteously, but because of excess of emotion, she was not understood.

I am guilty, I tried to get my X to act according to what he said, (Reading & Studying The Bible daily, Growing and Living In Christ) Being that what he said was lies in order to "get me", he could not be It, what he said, for one second. I got out of there quick (10 weeks), and what get's me is that I seen it and knew he was a lier before I agreed to marry him. I even told him so, and that I forgave him, with the hope he was telling the truth now. I was also feeling needy at the time. I had a few surgeries and was on pills, and was feeling sicker than that, like I was being poisoned. I felt I was being poisoned upon the first time I let that man cook for me. ((Here is where Sarah felt stupid too. She "knew" she made a poor decision and tried to handle it. That who she is would make a difference to the evil she forsaw.)) I even asked him if he poisoned me. He laughed and said "oh no, I wouldn't do that", and he giggled again. Well God knows and also provided me a way of escape like right now; the doors where open, I moved on it and everything fell into place like it never has, in order for me to escape this man. Yeah, that's a good one - try to get somebody to act on Gods behalf if they are professing "All That", and see what happens. Keep your eye's open though because the deceiver will trick you if he/she can.

Yes I have been forced to do the opposite of my principles. Even if it were I who chose to do it because I lacked in knowledge of the Will of My Abba. Either way many hard but good lesson's were learned.[/color][/font]

Sarah had jealousy aganist Hagar and she was hurt because she had given him Ishmael. Sarah did not wait on the Lord.

Q2. (21:8-10) What motivates Sarah to demand Ishmael's expulsion from Abraham's family encampment? Is she righteous in this? Have you ever tried to force your spouse to act against his or her principles? Have you ever been forced yourself?


[color="blue"]Firstly, Jealousy and inherent fear that Ishmael may inherit the property (as first born) and her son Isaac left with leftovers. Secondly, equality in status. Because they were playing together, it shows the position both the kids enjoyed in Abraham's household. Sarah wanted to seperate the equality and maintain the Owner-Slave positions between the siblings too. Since that was not possible at home, she wanted Hagar and Ishmael out of her camp. [/color]

[color="red"]Sarah was not right in this regard because she took recourse to her will. She did not wait on the Lord for His promises to be fulfilled. She was egoistic in this. One wrong decision of giving Hagar to Abraham for procreation purpose led to so many wrong repurcussions. And everwhere Sarah was wrong. How true in our lives, that we try to cover up for one little mistake with so many other wrongs. [/color]

[color="purple"]Fortunately for me, I have never forced my spouse to act against her wishes, good or bad. There are pros and cons for this action, but I believe in the Sovereignity of God. He is the one who controls us. Though I was forced to do things much against my wishes, ultimately they proved good because God was in control of my life. [/color]

Ishmael may have already been quite wild and he probably carried his mother’s attitude toward Sarah. Sarah is obviously not at her best. She sees the attachment Abraham has to Hagar and Ishmael. The sight of them and Abraham’s adoration for them must surely be robbing her of all the joy she should have. Sarah was intensely jealous of Hagar and Ishmael. She knew that Abraham had become one with Hagar in more than a physical way and Ishmael was evidence of the union. I think she also knew the law. She knew that Abraham could send away the son of a concubine and giving him his freedom would be his compensation. She knew that Ishmael had no part in the inheritance of Isaac.

I don’t think Sarah’s motivation is right, after all she was responsible for this affair. Sarah is like every other Christian I’ve known, she has moments she would just as soon forget. This is surely one of those times for her. God uses people to accomplish His work. Abraham had to come to terms with this situation. While we can’t justify Sarah’s motivation, such a move had to occur.

I don’t think I could force my husband to do anything. He doesn’t really force me into acts against my principles either. Now I do think we have gone together in the past. Ours would have been a more agreeable situation. If we decided to go against our principles, we would have done it together. We would have supported each other in the decision. Things are a lot different now, my husband would tell you that he would never support some of the decisions we made in the past, nor would he support some of the decisions that were my idea. Even though some situations were my idea, I could never force him to accept them, but I guess he would be considered an enabler. He wouldn’t participate in some of my lifestyle choices but he didn’t stop me. We are definitely more mature and are making the right choices now thanks to the grace of God. Some of those past moments, we would just as soon forget.

Sarah's motivation to demand Ishmael's expulsion from Abraham's family encampment was the fact of Ishmael's mocking of Isaac. He could have been hurting him in some way as older boys sometimes do to younger boys. She definitely did not want Ishmael inheriting any of Abraham's property.

Sarah was not righteous in her actions because it was her idea for Abraham to have the child by his handmade. That was wrong and she is reaping what she had sown.

No, I have never tried to force my husband to act against his principles.

I can see Sarah's feelings being explosive in this situation. Ishmael was a child in default, born of the frustration of both Sarah and Abraham at having no son. His mother had taunted Sarah with her son, yet the mother was Sarah's slave. This was the height of rudness on her part, even though she was expressing natural joy - and triumph! It hurt Sarah like a sharp knife, a wound that had barely healed over.

Ishmael was replaced as the true heir, demoted into uncertainty after 16 years of being the apple of his father's eye. And, with him, his mother Haggai was slapped right down to her original position of slave without status, where, for 16 years she had at least been the mother of Abraham's only son. Where she had been truimphant, Sarah now took that honour from her. She and her son cannot enter into the celebrations as fully as everyone else. For them it is a step down into uncertainty. Their feelings cannot be hidden entirely. Their body language at least will communicate to Sarah.

Sarah anticipates trouble. Finally God has delivered her of the son they had been promised, Abraham's heir. She wants no interference with that, no-one to share the honours. She senses their disturbed feelings. They must go. She has had enough trouble in her life with them. Having finally discharged her duty and function as wife, she takes the authority of that position to demand the expulsion of Ishmael and his mother.

She was right. Isaac was the child of promise and the rightful heir. Almost certainly there would be a fight over the will if Ishmael and his mother were around. She would not be strong enough to deal with them, so they must go. Then there will be no doubts, no fights. Right now she has Abraham to set it up for her and her son Isaac. Later she would not have that support.

Also it could be argued that she was unkind to them and therefore wrong. It would have taken a strong woman indeed to stand up to many more years of fighting over the future of the two boys. She couldn't handle it. She was not an automaton, just a woman. The time had come to be finished with this business of Ishmael. The slaves could be freed and sent away and all would be well. (except for the slave and child!). In this she sought to over-rule Abraham's sensitivities towards his older son. Some could argue that this was wrong on the grounds that she once called him her lord, and was now making demands of him. I don't think this was a habit - just a one-off. She had had to put up with Hagar for years. Now it was her turn. I can feel for Sarah, always trying to do the right thing, even to the point of huge sacrifice of giving Abraham her slave girl to have a son. It had not turned out well for her and she could stand no more. Her limits had been reached. Her sanity was a stake. Maybe it wasn't legalistically righteous, but (unlike Miriam) she did not have to suffer consequences for this decision. God accepted it (Genesis 21:12) and told Abraham to accept it. The big mistake had been to send in Hagar, and it was that that had to be dealt with eventually.

I have swung my spouse to my way of thinking in matters of real estate when I could not see how a plan could work. Moral principles were not involved I don't think.

I have been tricked into celebrating a win on the horses by going out to dinner, and not being told until I had eaten the dinner, thus attempting to implicate me in betting.

1.Sarah was motivated to demand Ishmael's explusion from Abraham's encampment because Ishmael was not A CHILD OF THE PROMISE and
therefore did not have the right to be joint heirs with Isaac. Those that
are our friends, but that are outside of the Lord cannot be heirs with us
until God calls them to be His own.

In the natural , one might say that Sarah was unfair, but I believe that
Sarah, this time, fully knew what she was doing and this time in obedience
to the Lord.

I would only ask my spouse to go against her principles if I felt she was
going against the Word of God. I believe I may have been tempted to go
against my principles, but was probably cautioned by the Holy Spirit to do
the right thing.

I would like to know what Hagar is doing in all of this. This was a time of joy and celebration for Sarah and I wonder if Hagar was doing anything to teach Ishmael respect for Isaac. I wonder if her attitude had improved in the thirteen years since Isaac was born. I think they are all reaping what they have sown as do we all today. Aren't we all in a sorry condition because of our own sin. I know I am.

God Bless,
Jen

she is outraged that Ishmael is mocking her son Isaac and so does want them out of the inheritance I think Hagar must have
had a hard time from them they are acting selfishly

Ishmael was making fun of Isaac and was mocking him, which when Sarah saw him she told Abraham that he had to go. I think it was out of jealousy and selfishness on her part. Not very righteous, especially after God had given the son through Hagar. She did not want Ishmael to share in any of the occasion meant for Isaac. Sarah did not want Ishmael to inherit anything, she wanted all the inheritance to go to Isaac. She was jealous that Abraham showed attention to Ishmael.

The birth of Isaac motivates Sarah to demand Ishmael's expulsion from Abraham's family encampment. She is righteous in this because Isaac was originally on God's plan, whereas Ishmael was in Sarah's plans. I have never tried to force my husband to act against his principles. I have been forced myself to keep peace in my house.

I know Sarah is human, and not responding as we outsiders who judge her can wisely control. I think of the times I had to stop nursing my children. It was a sad time for me to lose that connection to them. It was a relief for my husband to not have them so dependent on me. I struggled with it, tho I knew it was in everyones best interest. It ment the end of my physical part of the mothering process. Now it was more the decisions and modeling.
We have no righteousness of our own. If she was making a decision to keep only Isaac at home, then, because God honored it this time and kept them out of the home of Abraham, it was of God's righteousness then.
Yes, I have compromised what I think is right in marrage, but, that doesn't mean I was forced or even right myself. I thought I was basing my decision on God's word, but His plan seemed different than my understanding, and he has honored me with blessings for being obediant.

Sarah didn't like the idea of the son of her slave interacting with her son.
Ismael could of just been playing with Isaac or teasing and tormenting him the way siblings will do with each other.
I don't think Sarah was very righteous in demanding that Hagar and Ismael leave the camp. Like a lot of mothers, she attempted to stick up for her child.
She could of just talked to Hagar and have her discipline Ismael.
Also Sarah seems to have forgotten that it was her idea for Hagar to mate with Abraham so that she could have an heir thru Hagar.
Because of Sarah's unbelief, Hagar and Ismael are now paying the consequences.

His mocking which shows pride and lack of respect. She is righteous in this. To mock the son of their shared father is lack of respect not only to the son but also to the father and his mother. I can't say that I've ever forced my spouse to ever act against his own principles. I have been asked and strongly encouraged to tell "little white lies" (which I refused to do).