Pastor Ralph Posted September 16, 2010 Report Share Posted September 16, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luv4Jesusanu Posted November 6, 2010 Report Share Posted November 6, 2010 for we do not do what we are asking God to do. We must also forgive others as we want Jesus to forgive us. Otherwise we are not being truthful with ourselves or Jesus. I dont think righteous by works is what Jesus implied. God granted us Grace. Which is freely given to all. He didnt say that we had to work to be forgiven. Jesus intended for us to desire to be more and more like him. Striving to perfection in Christs words. To please our Heavenly Father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Windy Posted November 6, 2010 Report Share Posted November 6, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord’s Prayer become a curse upon a person? Is forgiving in order to be forgiven a kind of “righteousness by works”? Why or why not? If we pray, "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors", and we don't do that, then we are praying a curse upon ourselves. We are asking God to do to us as we do to others. Forgiving is not a "righteousness by works", but it is the right thing to do, to be more like God. I want to do what is right. I want to be treated with respect and forgiveness and so I have to treat other that way. You can't expect, more then you are willing to give. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanMary Posted November 9, 2010 Report Share Posted November 9, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord's Prayer become a curse upon a person? It's a beautiful prayer, and one meant to teach us how to pray, but one way I can think of it becoming a curse, is if it is relied on as a rote, memorized prayer which bypasses the heart, and gives the feeling that one has prayed, to just get the "check mark in the box". That kind of prayer keeps the Lord at arms length, and leads to bondage to ritualism and legalism, and does nothing toward building a relationship with the Lord, nor to self examination. (The kind of examination King David invited the Lord to do in Psalm 139 when he said "Search me and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts! And see if there is any wicked or hurtful way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." Another possibility is asking the Lord to forgive me in the same way I forgive others ...and If I stubbornly refuse to forgive others, I'm asking Him to do likewise to me. Is forgiving in order to be forgiven a kind of "righteousness by works"? Why or why not? I'd say that it can be "works" if that kind of "forgiveness" comes from a hard, self righteous "stingy" heart, rather than a heart of love and compassion, which extends the grace to others that the Lord has so graciously extended to a repentant sinner. On the other hand it can be part of learning and growing in the grace of forgiving....strong motivation to do the "hard work" of forgiveness. Like a parent telling a child what the consequence will be if they fail to do what is being asked, which is good training. I think it depends on the heart attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foofee's Nana Posted November 9, 2010 Report Share Posted November 9, 2010 How could praying the Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen Posted November 10, 2010 Report Share Posted November 10, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking His Face Posted November 10, 2010 Report Share Posted November 10, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highohfaith Posted November 10, 2010 Report Share Posted November 10, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lords Prayer become a curse upon a person? Is forgiving in order to be forgiven a kind of righteousness by works? Why or why not? We must pay heed to what the Lord's Prayer is teaching us,Listen to the words of Christ, and not pray it in a ritualistic manner. No, forgiving is not a righteousness of works. Because nothing is REQUIRED of us to forgive, BUT to take Jesus' EXAMPLE of forgiveness on the Cross! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanks Posted November 10, 2010 Report Share Posted November 10, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord's Prayer become a curse upon a person? Every time we pray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s8nfighter Posted November 10, 2010 Report Share Posted November 10, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Posted November 10, 2010 Report Share Posted November 10, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beliver Posted November 10, 2010 Report Share Posted November 10, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Posted November 10, 2010 Report Share Posted November 10, 2010 A great analogy Darrell. Faith and works or righteousness are 2 sides of the same coin. The 2 sides are different but an integral part of the same thing. I hadn't thought about it lke that before. Paul I don't think the Lord's Prayer can become a curse upon anybody. I do believe that the prayer is more of an obedience offer and a praise to the LORD than that of a request. Lord I love you and praise your name. Lord let your word be with me today. Lord I know I am weak but forgive me in my weakness. Lord I forgive all others who may have harmed me. Lord harden my heart toward the offers of Satan and this world. The word righteousness has become sort of a dirty word because of a grave misunderstanding. Righteousness is something that the LORD desires, it is obedience to His word. I don't know how we have gotten so far off track with the debate between faith and righteousness. Maybe it is because faith without works is easy. But the truth can be found in your pocket or purse. Reach in and pull out a coin, you will see the coin has two sides. No matter how many times you turn it over there will always be another on the back side. You cannot have one without the other. So it is with true faith and an honest righteousness. Some might say I have a two headed coin, well that is a counterfeit coin. Faith without obedience to the LORD is not faith in our LORD and Savior is it? And a self serving righteousness is not really obedience to the LORD is it? The hardest working muscle in our body is our heart. Does it work because I live or do I live because it works? I have been told that if I do not exercise my heart it will become weak. I believe the same about obedience to the LORD, (righteousness) if I do not exercise my choice to obey the LORD my faith becomes weak. Darrell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanting Posted November 10, 2010 Report Share Posted November 10, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delivered Posted November 10, 2010 Report Share Posted November 10, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord's Prayer become a curse upon a person? How can one be cursed whom God has blessed?....... Cursed are those who do the work of the LORD deceitfully, cursed are those who are wicked, who have departed from the LORD. Is forgiving in order to be forgiven a kind of "righteousness by works"? Works of repentance is in order for one to be forgiven, Luke clearly said, the person who brought the offence must be repentant in order for him to be forgiven, and woe to them, if they in return do not have a heart of compassion, forgiving him, works of righteousness is the results of one being forgiven, faith without works is Dead, there is no such faith as that which is dead. The world will know us by our "fruits" OUR "works." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WALT39 Posted November 10, 2010 Report Share Posted November 10, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord's Prayer become a curse upon a person? Is forgiving in order to be forgiven a kind of "righteousness by works"? Why or why not? Matthew 6:12, 14-15 - 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. How could praying the Lord's Prayer become a curse upon a person? Pastor Ralph wrote an interesting statement that if we give forgive a little and then also still hold a grudge, then we are asking God to do the same for us. I have never really thought of it in that way. He makes a perfectly correct point in that if we do that, then we are not being truthful with God and therefore we are making a terrible sin. Is forgiving in order to be forgiven a kind of "righteousness by works"? Why or why not? No. We are only saved through Jesus Christ. I think that Titus 3:4-7 explains why it is not a kind of "righteousness by works". Titus 3(NRSV)-4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moses 4 Posted November 10, 2010 Report Share Posted November 10, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord's Prayer become a curse upon a person? Is forgiving in order to be forgiven a kind of "righteousness by works"? Why or why not? The Jews were noted for their devotion to prayer. Formal prayer was prescribed for three set times a day. And the rabbis had a prayer for every occasion. Jesus warns his disciples against formalism, making prayer something mechanical and devoid of meaning, with little thought for God. When Jesus taught his disciples to pray he gave them the disciple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis63 Posted November 11, 2010 Report Share Posted November 11, 2010 The verses themselves 9 through 13 can be a prayer however it is my understanding that Jesus give us a template, a pattern a guide, the prayer itself is a good prayer, it is from the Lord, yet it is not to become a ritualistic prayer and or an empty prayer. Although we can pray this prayer, it was not given as exact words that we should use (only / alone). After this manner, Jesus didn't tell us to simply repeat His words, although thoughtfully going through the points of this prayer and talking to God about them is certainly good. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord's Prayer become a curse upon a person? Curse is a strong word, I believe that a person can speak life or death into their lives and or the circumstance. Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. however maintaining stride with the thought of the lesson in essence a person if they are not imitating God, His love, His compassion, His character they are asking Him to do unto them as that are doing onto the individual that offended them. They maybe at the time are being influenced and or lead by their feeling and they likewise are asking God to be lead by his now feelings. This can be perceived as a curse. Is forgiving in order to be forgiven a kind of "righteousness by works"? No more Philippians 2:12 speaks of working for one' s eternal salvation (Titus 3:4-7). Jesus by stating what he has is not meant to be interpreted as forgiving in order to be forgiven. It is to be understood as not withholding things that are evil, it is to be interpreted as LOVE, loving God, loving thy neighbor. Matthew 5:44-45 Verses 14-15 God's forgiveness of sin is not the direct result of our forgiving others, but it is based on our realizing what forgiveness means. This is the forgiveness that affects fellowship, it can have an effect on salvation. Nonetheless as referenced here the interpretation is not the forgiveness that leads to eternal salvation. The only way that forgiveness can be considered as works, righteousness by works is if the mindset is not in line with God's intent and character. The motive and the attitude have great baring. Note: The Believer is required to do something to be saved, Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:. It is by His grace yet we must believe, John 3:16 we must believe. Why or why not? I think we are to make every attempt to like our Lord and Savior, this is His nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitar Jim Posted November 11, 2010 Report Share Posted November 11, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Jerry Posted November 11, 2010 Report Share Posted November 11, 2010 The way that the Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard C Posted November 12, 2010 Report Share Posted November 12, 2010 "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." That is surely a self-inflicted curse if you're not good at forgiving. Forgiving in order to be forgiven is a false form of righteousness by works, if indeed you can have such. In Matthew 18:35, Jesus states, "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses." God knows the state of a man's heart - you can't fake it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l.a. Posted November 12, 2010 Report Share Posted November 12, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexandria Posted November 13, 2010 Report Share Posted November 13, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marloes Posted November 13, 2010 Report Share Posted November 13, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoiKosum Posted November 13, 2010 Report Share Posted November 13, 2010 Q4. (Matthew 6:12, 14-15) How could praying the Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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