[Pastor Ralph]

Q2. Why did Jesus refer to the violent nature of his death in the Words of Institution? What did this probably mean to the disciples at the time? What did it probably mean to them later?

[Stan]

Q2. Why did Jesus refer to the violent nature of his death in the Words of Institution? What did this probably mean to the disciples at the time? What did it probably mean to them later?

To allow them who knew the scripture to know that He was fulfilling prophecy and all of them to know that all sin no matter how minor causes pain and suffering. He wanted them to know that through His sacrifice that all their sin were paid for and that He was there Passover Lamb. He wasa doing the Fathers will and they needed to understand that the Father requires payment for our sinfulness.

At the time they were frighten and did not understand at all the things that were happing around them. They had thought Jesus was going to reign as King right where they were. They were afraid for their own safety after Jesus was arrested and hung on the cross. The men on the road to Emmaus didn't understan till Jesus opened their eyes and taught them the meaning of the scriptures.

Later it brought them gladness, Joy, Peace, Patience they were given the fruit of the Spirit and the strength to carry the gospel to the Jews and later the Gentiles.

[Helenmm]

Q2. Why did Jesus refer to the violent nature of his death in the Words of Institution? What did this probably mean to the disciples at the time? What did it probably mean to them later?

As is made clear in the story of Noah, God hates violence. It's also there in Habukkuk, where He hates the violence behing divorce. Violence is why He wanted to clean the earth of men and was sorryHe ever created them. The first - and unforgiveable - violence a man can do is to disbelieve God. That leads to all sorts of other styles of violence and, not very far down the track, to murder. Indeed, if you don't believe God, there is nothing to stop you from any form of immorality or violence, because you give account to no-one. A man in unbelief cannot be forgiven because there is simply no connection with God possible. Everything that is not of the Spirit violates (meaning destroys) the purpose of God and the Institution of His word. This is why Jesus suffered violation on the Cross. Any violation, however small it may seem, is of the death nature, is like a nail in Jesus' hand. One nail, you might think, wouldn't kill Him, but it was part of the violation that did.

I don't think the disciples cottoned on to Jesus' meaning at the time. They did know the passover meant the killing of lambs, but whether they connected that to Jesus' crucifixion before the event is very questionable. John may have got an inkling because Jesus had spoken of His deathmany times, and John was able to believe in the resurrection the minute He saw that Jesus was no longer in the tomb. However, I think it might have been in hindsight, after Pentecost, that the disciples began to understand the new passover.

After the Pentecost, Jesus had forgiven Peter his denial, the disciples on the road to Emmaus had listened to Jesus explaining the scriptures about whyJesus must suffer, and all of them had experienced His physical presence in resurrection, the Holy jSpirit was able to give them clarity, and Peter was able to address the crowds with certainty and at great length on what was happening. I think, that day things became clear.

[Jezemeg]

I believe that Jesus stressed the violent means of His Death to indicate to His disciples that His sacrifice was not to be taken lightly, that it was made as a result of great suffering on His part. His Divinity did not prevent His Humanity from suffering the pain inflicted so unrighteously.

At the time, the disciples didn't fully understand what Jesus told them, mostly because their ears had not been able to hear His message. It was only by His resurrection and His appearance to His disciples that revelation of His message finally occurred. Thomas examined His wounds the biblical account is such that it intimates that Thomas was actually able to touch Jesus, so proving that His resurrection wasn't a mere spirtitual encounter, but that Jesus appeared in the flesh.

The reference to Jesus' blood being poured out, means I believe, that there is ample supply to atone for the sins of all willing to confess them and turn to God. I believe this statement also is testament to the longevity of the sacrifice, that is a once and for all sacrifice, not the yearly atonement specified in the Old Testament, thus making the ritual sacrifices obsolete.

[baseballfan]

He referred to the violent nature to show His martyrdom, that He died for us. It probably freaked out the disciples when they first heard it, but later when they understood, they could be comforted (although that seems too weak word), knowing that He had given His life for them.

[Elwood C O'Dell]

Q2. Why did Jesus refer to the violent nature of his death in the Words of Institution? What did this probably mean to the disciples at the time? What did it probably mean to them later?

I believe Jesus did this to try and help them understand the magnitude of His death. Perhaps He was trying to help them understand that He would die as a martyr, as one giving up their life for the sake of a cause, the salvation of mankind in order that they might have life. They had to realize that the cost of their salvation was great and could not be taken lightly.

At the time He did this, I am not sure the disciples understood what was truly happening. But after His death and resurrection, with His appearances to them, I feel the light began to dawn as they started to realize what He had done on their behalf.

[masika]

Christ was meaning that His death was for all for could believe in Him. His disciples did not understant at first , because they were hoping for a leader who will drive away the Romans who were ruling them by then.
They came to know this later when Jesus had risen from the dead .

[JustJeff]

The Pesach Lamb was given, as were all sacrificial animals, as a blood offering to the Lord to cover sin. Their death was indeed violent and necessary to spare man from death by sin. Jesus became our Pesach Lamb, a final sacrifice, a blood offering to cover our sin. His violent death gave us life and by always remembering His passion by the horrible image of Christ crucified we have a memorial, indelibly etched in our minds.
At the time the disciples were in confusion as they did not understand the meaning and timing of His death. As they learned of and accepted His resurrection they came to correlate the significance of His Passover sacrifice with that of the Lamb, His shed blood for the remission of sin and His words at the last Seder which have been written down for us to follow until the end of this age wherein we will then join Him for the marriage supper of the Lamb. Hallelujah!

[steve.c]

Pastor Ralph, on May 13 2006, 09:37 PM, said:

Q2. Why did Jesus refer to the violent nature of his death in the Words of Institution? What did this probably mean to the disciples at the time? What did it probably mean to them later?

Jesus refers to the violent nature of His impending death because His death was not just a sacrifice (a lamb is sacrificed but not necessarily tortured and brutalised) but it was also a martyrdom of a most violent kind. I think, notwithstanding what Jesus had said beforehand predicting His death, the disciples thought somehow it could be avoided or was not necessarily imminent. Even when He was arrested Peter thought that he could fight their way out of the situation. Had the disciples known that the night at Gethsemane was the last time they would be together before His arrest, they may not have slept but have stayed close to Hm. The significance of what Jesus was saying was probably only fully understood when they met the resurrected Jesus. Then they understood the nature and implications of His sacrifice and His conquest of death. They realised the purpose and culmination of His ministry and its implications for mankind.

[charity]

The violent nature of Jesus’ death and the description He used with his disciples was necessary to show the weight of sin, its consequence to mankind and the demand of God’s righteousness. “The righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ…justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God, He passed over the sins previously committed…that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.” (Ro. 3:21-26) God’s righteousness demands that God punish sin. It is through practicing “steadfast love, justice and righteousness in the earth” that God is glorified in his creation. (Jer. 9:24) And being a jealous God, He will not allow anything or anyone to receive His glory. Jesus, our propitiation, is that sacrifice that bore the wrath of God against sin. His horribly inflicted death is what then turned that wrath into God’s favor toward mankind. His forbearance carried forward as debt the sins of the Old Testament saints, the present sins of today and the future sins of tomorrow for mankind and bringing justification to those who believe in Christ.
At the time of the Last Supper, these words to his disciples probably were not fully understood, but carried somberness because the practice of sacrifices was not taken lightly. I would think much of what the disciples were feeling was more on an emotional level rather on a spiritual level. The thought of their friend and leader dying was preeminent. Following Christ’s resurrection and the disciples subsequent travels in spreading the gospel, I think that these words would have been a source of consolation, hope, brokenness and strength. They also would have been the introduction to a prequel to their own lives as martyrs and to us as fellow disciples today.

[Blessed Me]

Q2. Why did Jesus refer to the violent nature of his death in the Words of Institution?
Sin is violent, it kills the soul and seperates man from the Father; and yet Christ willingly would become sin, He would take on the sin of the world. The violence shows the awful state mankind is in with sin ruling in their lives. However, Christ was willing to take it on Himself. The cost He paid-was, and is, beyond our understanding. The only word that comes to my mind is "love" -- He came to do the will of the Father and the cost was not an easy one. The end result when He presented to the Father the work He did on the cross, was ample compensation for all He endured. He looked at it with pleasure. For multitudes would be saved from the grasp of sin on mans life. This is why we should Love Him with all our hearts, for saving our souls from the violent stage it was in, seperation from the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

What did this probably mean to the disciples at the time?
They were looking for Christ to rule as King on earth. The disiciples knew violence. They were tortured, killed, put in jail, etc. (Christ will rule again and I think that day is getting near, but for now He has gone to prepare a place for the bride and will come again.) They did not understand all of this at that time.
What did it probably mean to them later?
They also were willing to lay down their lives for the gospel, knowing in the end, there is a reward for all that continue in the faith. All of them except for John, were martyred. What should this say to us when we are tested? Will we take advantage of this time and learn from them? God we give praises to you for the work that was done on the cross, help us to stand firm on the foundation of "Salvation." The world can kill the body, but not the soul.
As I think about the words from Steven, "forgive them" -- That power, that love, comes from the Holy Spirit. They felt the touch of the Master's hand, power was seen in the lives of these great men of God. He desires this power to be seen also in our lives.

[charisbarak]

The violence of those words in explanation of what was going to be happening to Him were to prepare the disciples for what was soon to come. I think they would have tried to connect it to the passover somehow, but I think they dared not think that He would have to die to bring this to pass--perhaps God would step in & rescue Him somehow? Afterwards, when He had risen from the dead and the Holy Spirit entered them, I think they knew and understood the full implication of what had happened to Jesus & the awful price He paid for our salvation.

[pickledilly]

Any time the blood of an innocent person is shed, it is considered a violent violation of life. And when the animals were offered as sacrifices to the LORD, can you just imagine the violence of the scene? Jesus was an innocent man who was also the sacrificial Lamb of God. In viewing those sacrifices since boyhood, I think He realized that His blood was not going to be given from His body is some pristine or tidy way, but that the full assault of sin/death against life was going to be brutal and horrific. His blood was going to be poured out of Him in rivers. I think the physical tortures of Gethsemane, the trials, and Calvary opened every blood vessel and capillary to discharge every single drop. And it was all to be given to establish a new covenant of forgiveness for us. As He said, "This is my blood ... which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins", maybe He was trying to prepare His disciples for what they were going to witness in the next several hours. Maybe He was showing them the true horror and cost of sin. Maybe He was giving them words for the future hope they would need. Certainly, He knew we would all need to remember.

At the time, I'm sure the disciples didn't understand. They didn't comprehend that, as the Lamb of sacrifice, Jesus was going to willingly suffer this violent death that would release His holy blood for our forgiveness and redemption. If anything, it may have stirred up questions, doubts, and fears; and, even though Jesus had spoken of His death several times, maybe these words made them wonder what in the world He was talking about. After the resurrection of Christ and their own baptism of the Holy Spirit, I think they finally understood the fulfillment of all the LORD had promised through the old covenant and animal sacrifices. They understood the mission of Messiah was to redeem His people through the blood offering. They understood that the spotless Lamb truly had taken away the sins of the world and defeated death itself! What had been fear, shock, and sorrow could then become overwhelming praise, gratitude, and worship. The precious shed blood of Christ was now the foundation of their faith and hope for eternity - and their lives were never the same.

[glory]

I BELIEVE JESUS WANTED HIS DISCIPLES TO HAVE MORE UNDERSTANDING OF THE VIOLENT NATURE OF HIS DEATH, BUT THEY DIDNT SEEM TO GRASP THAT HE CAME TO SET UP A SPIRITUL KINGDOM AND NOT A PHYSICAL ONE.JESUS WANTED THEM TO UNDERSTAND THE SIGNIFICANCE OF PASSOVER AND THE CONNECTION WITH HIS DEATH BUT I DONT THINK THEY FULLY GRASPED IT UNTIL LATER ON.THEY DIDNT REALISE HIS BLOOD WAS TO BE POURED OUT FOR REDEMPTION OF MANKIND AND FORGIVENESS OF SINS JUST LIKE THE LAMB IN THE OLD TESTAMENT WHOSE BLOOD ATONED FOR SINS.I'M SURE THEY WERE ETERNALLY GRATEFUL WHEN THE REALISATION CAME OF WHAT HE HAD DONE FOR THEM. WHEN HE RESURRECTED AND LATER FILLED THEM WITH HIS HOLY SPIRIT, THEY WERE THEN ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE HIDDEN TRUTHS SO MUCH SO THAT MANY OF THEM WERE VIOLENTLY PUT TO DEATH FOR THEIR FAITH IN CHRIST.

[Eudora]

Q2. Why did Jesus refer to the violent nature of his death in the Words of Institution?

One of the verses used in the study has caused me to remember something I learned long ago. Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

The blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zacharias? From A to Z, they were slain and Jesus said that they, those who had slain them, would be guilty of all the righteous bloodshed through the centuries. Yet they were about to kill the most righteous of all that came or ever would come. Abel was the first killed and Zacharias was the last killed in the Hebrew Bible, which ended in the 2nd Chronicles. Zacharias was also killed by men who claimed to be God’s people. What I learned? No matter who we are, from A to Z, we will not escape judgment from our just and faithful Father.

In Romans 3:15 they were quick to commit murder. In Isaiah 59:7 their feet run to do evil, and they rush to commit murder. In the Acts 20:22, Paul shares admission that he even held the coats of those who killed Stephen. In Revelations 16:6, the ones who have killed those A to Z, unless they have repented, in the end, they will taste the blood that they have shed, in their own blood shed. When Jesus was killed, even though it was God’s plan, they still committed murder and unless they that killed Him, repented, they will find their feet in the debts of hell as their price for committing that sin. A sin is a sin is a sin. God makes no distinction of how or why one commits murder. It is the sin of disobedience to His words, of thou shall not commit murder.

What did this probably mean to the disciples at the time? What did it probably mean to them later?

They were probably not even thinking about what He said, until the act was done, and it is later when they figured it out. I personally don’t think that the measure of what He had really done had sunk in until Pentecost. I think even perhaps the following Passover celebration, His words may have reverberated in their minds, a little deeper.

[Lisa Rupert]

Q2. Why did Jesus refer to the violent nature of his death in the Words of Institution? What did this probably mean to the disciples at the time? What did it probably mean to them later?
JESUS REFERED TO VIOLENCE TO DESCRIBE HIS DEATH BECAUSE HE KNEW THAT THE DISCIPLES WOULD NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. SO HE GAVE THEM THIS DESCRIPTION FOR FUTURE REFERENCE SO THAT THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO HAVE SOME KIND OF UNDERSTANDING INTO WHAT THEY WERE ABOUT TO WITNESS WHICH WAS HIS VIOLENT DEATH. OF COURSE, WHEN THE PEOPLE BEGAN TO TORTURE CHRIST, THE DISCIPLES DID NOT UNDERSTAND, THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND HIS CRUICIFIXION. HE REFERRED TO ISAIAH TO ALSO LET THEM KNOW THAT HE WAS THERE TO FULFILL PROPHESY. LATER THEY WOULD COME TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HAD HAPPEN AND WHY IT HAD HAPPENED.

[Lion of Grace]

Jesus referred to the violence of His death and told them of His blood to be poured out to show them and to help them understand the cost of sin. It was a violent practice to offer an animal sacrifice and His death and suffering wasn't going to be any different except that His death would atone for our sin once and for all. He was explaining something to them that was so spiritual.....I don't know if the disciples really grasped at that time all He was saying, though He often talked about His death and rebuked any who said it wouldn't happen. How much was truly understood though until the Holy Spirit came....I don't know. I know most were bewildered and afraid and hiding as it all happened. That to me shows a lack of understanding.
I think it's still a lot like that for people today. Except by faith and the power of the Holy Spirit, it is hard to grasp that someone would do that for us. Except through the Holy Spirit revealing the truth to us and God's love for us and showing us God's faithfulness in spite of our sin it would be really difficult to accept that for ourselves....knowing we don't deserve any of it. The truth is though...Jesus did die for us.... and we have life because of it....but it wasn't at any small cost. It was at the highest, most painful, torturous cost and it was the greatest display of love and grace ever given and we need to remember that every time we take communion and examine ourselves for unconfessed sin or lack of good fellowship between each other. For that matter....even when we are tempted to sin anytime.

[haar]

Jesus referred to the nature of his vilent death in the words of the Institution to prepare the disciples' mind that His sacrificial death would be horrible and would be on the cross. At that moment, the disciples could not imagine how their Master and Lord could go throgh such an ugly experiemce. Later, they must have realised that the cost their salvation and that of the whole mankind was very high.

[PCHRIS]

Firstly Jesus was confirming and reminding the disciples what the OT prophecy's said about Jesus' trial, torture and death on the tree.

The disciples were frightened, confused, expecting Jesus to reign as a earthly king to otherthrow the Roman tyrants. Not u/standing what Jesus was about to do.

I agree with some other points that have been made that the most of the disciples didn't really grasp what had happened. John was the only one at the cross with Jesus mother and Mary. Not until Pentecost the revelation hit them, thru the Holy Spirit, their eyes and hearts were opened and they were filled with power to further the kingdom of God.

Firstly Jesus was confirming and reminding the disciples what the OT prophecy's said about Jesus' trial, torture and death on the tree.

The disciples were frightened, confused, expecting Jesus to reign as a earthly king to otherthrow the Roman tyrants. Not u/standing what Jesus was about to do.

I agree with some other points that have been made that the most of the disciples didn't really grasp what had happened. John was the only one at the cross with Jesus mother and Mary. Not until Pentecost the revelation hit them, thru the Holy Spirit, their eyes and hearts were opened and they were filled with power to further the kingdom of God.

[Julie]

For it would be easily understood why His blood must be shed just as the blood was shed of the Passover lamb to protect, His blood must be shed
I think the disciples had a clear understanding for this had been going on for years but it would have been hard to understand the full impact untill after the resurrection