Pastor Ralph Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 Q2. (Hebrews 6:4-5) What difference, if any, would you find between the description in verses 4-5 and a Spirit-filled Christian today? What is the writer's point in forming this description? Note: We agree to disagree, but we will disagree with love and humility toward one another in our words, as befitting genuine Christians! To keep us on track, let's limit our discussion to passages in Hebrews only, not the entire New Testament. Immoderate tirades will be removed from the Forum and poison tongues will lose their privileges to participate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob.kenda Posted May 10, 2007 Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 Q2. (Hebrews 6:4-5) What difference, if any, would you find between the description in verses 4-5 and a Spirit-filled Christian today? What is the writer's point in forming this description? Note: We agree to disagree, but we will disagree with love and humility toward one another in our words, as befitting genuine Christians! To keep us on track, let's limit our discussion to passages in Hebrews only, not the entire New Testament. Immoderate tirades will be removed from the Forum and poison tongues will lose their privileges to participate. I having trouble with this question. Hebrews 6:4,5 ends with a comma. What difference are you referring to? I rather enjoy this study, this question though has absolutely thrown me a curve. I don't think there is an answer the way it is stated, in my mind. I don 't think I can answer part two either, unless I am just totally missing something. Acts 17:11 comes to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissioned Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 Q2. (Hebrews 6:4-5) What difference, if any, would you find between the description in verses 4-5 and a Spirit-filled Christian today? What is the writer's point in forming this description? There is virtually no difference, since both lived or are living after Jesus made the statement that the Holy spirit will come when he depart. The writer is pointing to the fact that both have the same experience of Jesus as Savior, the Word of God to guide and the Holy Spirit as "Comforter," "Counselor" and "Teacher" among other things, dwelling within. John 16:7 (KJV) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabatha Posted May 26, 2007 Report Share Posted May 26, 2007 Q2. (Hebrews 6:4-5) What difference, if any, would you find between the description in verses 4-5 and a Spirit-filled Christian today? What is the writer's point in forming this description? Note: We agree to disagree, but we will disagree with love and humility toward one another in our words, as befitting genuine Christians! To keep us on track, let's limit our discussion to passages in Hebrews only, not the entire New Testament. Immoderate tirades will be removed from the Forum and poison tongues will lose their privileges to participate. In the first century, a pagan who investigated Christianity and then went back to paganism made a clean break with the church. But for Jewish Christians who decided to return to Judaism, the break was less obvious. Their life-style remained relatively unchanged. But by deliberately turning away from Christ, they were cutting themselves off from God's forgiveness. Those who perservere in believing are true saints; those who continue to reject Christ are unbelievers, no matter how well they behave. Once a Spirit-filled Christian of today has tasted of the heavenly grace of God and walked in the goodness of Christ, Then turns away from all the things they have seen and learned they have been turned over to a reprobate mind and are closed off to what they could have. I believe the writer is describing a backslider, and they are so difficult to bring back to the Lord. it is as though they are closed off to hear the truth anymore. They do not want to repent of their ways. Sad to say, I have two adult children who were once walking in the Spirit -filled life now they are completely walking away from all of what they learned because of hurt by the church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charisbarak Posted May 26, 2007 Report Share Posted May 26, 2007 I don't find much difference in the persons described in v. 4 & 5 and the true Spirit-filled believer. The writer would be saying that the true Christian would be a growing Christian--maturing little by little. When I catch myself trying to figure out if that person is truly a Christian or not, I just remember...Only God knows if this person was really a believer or not. Some people are good at pretending--acting out what we'd like to see. I know I just can't see how I could ever turn my back on God and give up my salvation just like that. :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbirich Posted May 27, 2007 Report Share Posted May 27, 2007 I don't think there is a difference - I think the writer's purpose is to remind those he is writing to of who they are, what they have and what they would be giving up and turning away from if they went back to the legalistic rules and rituals of Judiasm - especially as "partakers of the Holy Spirit" when to partake in something means to participate fully and completely in it I know in my life I have drifted very far away at times, but the Spirit has always stopped me at a point that I think would be the farthest I could get - He's turned me around and brought me back and I think the writer of Hebrews is referring to anyone who would at that point reject the Spirit and refuse to come back continuing to get farther and farther away - this particular portion has always been confusing and hard for me to understand because I cannot see how we can truly be "partakers of the Holy Spirit" and continually ignore and/or deliberately turn away from Him - in my own life, I know I could not have continued on past the point where He stopped me - it seems to me that if we can ignore or reject the Holy Spirit, we are not truly "partakers" at all I also think that this is the warning; to listen and obey the Spirit, to be continually aware that we have this tendency to turn away, to stay close to God through prayer, study, reading and fellowship with other Christians Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia A Posted May 27, 2007 Report Share Posted May 27, 2007 [b]Q2. (Hebrews 6:4-5) What difference, if any, would you find between the description in verses 4-5 and a Spirit-filled Christian today?I don't feel there is any difference. I believe a spirit-filled Christian will continue to mature and grow closer to God. The falling away here mentioned is an open and avowed renouncing of Christ, from enmity of heart against him, his cause, and people, by men approving in their minds the deeds of his murderers. What is the writer's point in forming this description? Believers need to be careful not to wound and terrify the weak, or discourage the fallen and penitent.[/b] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helenmm Posted May 27, 2007 Report Share Posted May 27, 2007 Q2. (Hebrews 6:4-5) What difference, if any, would you find between the description in verses 4-5 and a Spirit-filled Christian today? What is the writer's point in forming this description? I think these verses refer very much to the Spirit-filled Christian of today. I was one who knew something of the word, no experience of miracles, but had sampled of the Spirit, (not as in speaking with tongues, but as in enlightenment) and then forgot all about Jesus for twenty years, with just one or two efforts to return to worship in that time. Yet There came a time when I returned vitorously to my faith and repented. God has put me in a place of experiencing the Spirit and hearing of miracles. Oddly, during those years away from God, there was still a certainty of the Absolute, a knowledge of Love. My feeling is that God never left me during those years, but remained faithful, until, like the prodigal son, I returned to Him. I count myself very blessed indeed. Yet I have seen those who, knowing God, have set themselves on paths of immoral behaviour (sexual and financial) while at the same time remaining in attendance at church, who have even an understanding of what they have done and a fear that they cannot get back because of the hardness of their hearts. Hearts can become so hard, it seems, that repentance and renewal is impossible. Part of this process, in my experience, seems to be that understanding of and sensitivity towards others is also diminished as if the lights had gone out. Oh, it is so important to stand in the fear of God. Paul is warning the church that this hardening of the heart beyond recall can happen. Perhaps it can even be identified in particular cases. People may have to be told to leave the congregation in certain cases where constant damage is being done. If the people remain on a diet of milk and do not proceed to maturity, then there is a danger. If faith becomes intellectual instead of down to earth obedience the danger is huge. "If you love Me, keep My commandments!" Paul is trying to spell it out clearly so that the blood is not on his head when people take this path. He must have been horrified to discover that the Hebrew church was struggling in this fashion, and doing his best to get them to put on their running shoes (Heb 12: 1,2) again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Q2. (Hebrews 6:4-5) What difference, if any, would you find between the description in verses 4-5 and a Spirit-filled Christian today? What is the writer's point in forming this description? 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. My opinion on this and it goes with what I have been taught because I am for from being a scholar that it is talking about people during that time who had seen the mircles of Jesus of at least heard of or knew people who had and had turned from Judaism to Christianity and now for what ever reason were trying to return to the sacrificies for sin instead of looking to Jesus. I believe that this would answer the second partot the question because people of today would not have the same reason for turning to judiasm as those people had done and would not likely want to, but to those who turn to judiasm after a knowledge of Christ then they would be crucifying Jesus anew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masika Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Those people who did not believe in Christ at that time were called unbelievers, no matter how well they behave. They were getting themselvles off from God's forgiveness. It is very hard in today world to tell who are true believers, because many people are hiding in the religion, but when they are away from other brethren they do the opposite. The Writer is telling us to hold on on God, since He Good. Those who have tested the goodness of God, should keep on to know more of Him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PATJOE Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Q2. (Hebrews 6:4-5) What difference, if any, would you find between the description in verses 4-5 and a Spirit-filled Christian today? What is the writer's point in forming this description? Note: We agree to disagree, but we will disagree with love and humility toward one another in our words, as befitting genuine Christians! To keep us on track, let's limit our discussion to passages in Hebrews only, not the entire New Testament. Immoderate tirades will be removed from the Forum and poison tongues will lose their privileges to participate. In my opinion, the statements in both verses 4 and 5 refer to a spirit-filled Christian's experiences. It may be the writer's point in forming this description, is to caution us as Christians that once we really know who our Lord is, and what loving grace He shows us -- which is the ultimate Christian experience -- if we are real in this belief, we have it all and accept God's full existence, love, grace and forgiveness, and that to revert back, away from God, after living in His truth, is an unforgiveable sin in God's eyes. In some way, it would seem to crucify Jesus all over again. I firmly believe that if a devout Christian who loves God and accepts His promises, falls away from God temporarily, sometimes without realizing it, that this human weakness is already covered by God, once the Christian sees his error and repents. I believe He can and will be accepted back by our Father. I feel the scripture we are studying, is referring to a person who was once Christian, and deliberately walks away from God and rejects all that God offers. As well, I hope there are very few of these people in our world with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJeff Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Personally, I'm not aware of a conflict in these scriptures since I am not familiar with either religious opinion. I feel that the heavenly gift that the writer is referring to is God's grace, which becomes visible to us when we walk with Him through His word, illuminated by the Holy Spirit. Since Christians are Christian no matter the age we live in there is no difference between then and now. By the way, this letter was written to Jewish believers or wannabes so it would be somewhat shallow to refer this to Christians only as Jewish believers are Messianic Jews. With that in mind, the writer is going to great lengths to establish Jesus as the new covenant, the final sacrifice and the last High Priest. It would seem that whoever wrote this letter is trying to gain closure and final acceptance of that fact, addressing the penalty for turning back on God which, historically, the Jews are notorius for doing (see the Old Testament). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s8nfighter Posted May 29, 2007 Report Share Posted May 29, 2007 I like to read the words written in red in my bible. Those words are direct from our LORD and Savior, Jesus Christ. I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." Mark 3:28 29 I could list numerous differances but there is no need to, simply because there is only one thing to keep in mind. That is the first thing the Holy Spirit was going to do is convict (point out) our sins. Make us aware of what is right and what is wrong. If we deny the Holy Spirit and say we are not sinners, if we refuse the Holy Spirit and say sin is better than righteousness then there is no hope. But if we repent!!!! As far as falling away, I believe there is a big difference between rejecting and giving into temptation. This verse in no way puts all Christians back under the law, the law which says once guilty always guilty, this verse in no way removes grace, for we have always had the law and now we also have grace which puts us a slave to the law by choice. The point the writer is making here is the same Jesus made about the salt of the earth. If salt loses its saltiness how can it be made salty again. We must begin to act like Christians or others will look at out faith as a joke. How do we act like Chistians?? We begin to treat others differently. I was doing a kindness for a family and while I was working on thier house I asked them why they didn't go to church. Thier reply was, "There are nicer people in the bar than in church." I believe we have already lost some of the saltiness, but I also believe we still have hope. Darrell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEPHEN ROSS Posted May 29, 2007 Report Share Posted May 29, 2007 I am not quite sure how to answer this,except to say that it is possible to operate in the gifts and know God with a head knowledge ,without fully s.urrendering your heart to him. I wuold be interested in your comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy D. Posted May 29, 2007 Report Share Posted May 29, 2007 This verse is complicated to me, and I do hope to have a better understanding of it eventually. But to me at this point in my understanding, I believe no true believer who is following Jesus will apostasize to the point of death....meaning that the Holy Spirit within each believer will convict them of their sin unto repentance, even if it takes years for them to repent....because my Father has said that NO MAN can remove one of His children from His hand. So I am counting on His faithfulness and Love and Word to KEEP ME SAFE from even myself, and others who would spoil my faith. I love Him and appreciate His deep protective love for me, and am counting on His continuing to do so. For those who have head knowledge of Jesus and "think" they are Christians for whatever reasons, and are associated with Christians (so they have sort of tasted of His spirit) and then fall away into other beliefs or turn away from Jesus, I just pray that I will not be the cause of anyone's disillusionment to turn away from our church. I have known so called Christians who are so unattractive in their witness that I felt like leaving the church myself...but did not, cause I realize there are also baby believers without wisdom, without deep love, who are still just crying for milk like a baby would and not responding to anyone but themselves. So judgment is impossible, except by the fruit of our lives, and I do so pray for fruits of His Spirit to be evident in my life in other's eyes, for His Glory and honor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted May 29, 2007 Report Share Posted May 29, 2007 There is no difference between a spritit filled life in the 1st century or a spirit filled life today in 2007. The writer is defining a what spirit filled life is and where a mature Christian ought to be in that life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sahala p.s. Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Q2. (Hebrews 6:4-5) What difference, if any, would you find between the description in verses 4-5 and a Spirit-filled Christian today? What is the writer's point in forming this description? Note: We agree to disagree, but we will disagree with love and humility toward one another in our words, as befitting genuine Christians! To keep us on track, let's limit our discussion to passages in Hebrews only, not the entire New Testament. Immoderate tirades will be removed from the Forum and poison tongues will lose their privileges to participate. The difference between the description in verses 4-5 and a Spirit-filled Christian today is none. The writer's point in forming this description is that it is possible for a person or a Christian who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, shared in Holy Spirit, tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age to fall away or commit apostasy and lose his or her salvation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCHRIS Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 I can't see or define any difference between a Spirit-filled Christian and the description given in our text. Once one who has been enlightened, tasted, shared who would want to go back on that gift given to us. Yes, we all have a sinful nature but there is a difference between tripping up every now and again and going out and wilfully sinning, (bit like falling into a swimming pool and getting back out quickly or diving in and swimming around enjoying the 'nice cool' water) The Holy Spirit who we partake with, guides and convicts us in our lives and if we refuse to be obedient to His voice and turn our back to Him well then it's like slapping Jesus in the face after all that He has done for us. Someone quoted the Scripture, (John 10:28) that no one can snatch us out of the Fathers hand, that is so true but I have known some who have wilfully jumped out themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
June Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 Many have experienced "miracles" and "powers" of Christ but don't think that Christ can use them to do the same for someone else. Some believe it only happened back then and have turned their backs on the One from all these things come from. We can all be used by Christ if we let the Holy Spirit work through us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa Rupert Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Q2. (Hebrews 6:4-5) What difference, if any, would you find between the description in verses 4-5 and a Spirit-filled Christian today? What is the writer's point in forming this description? Note: We agree to disagree, but we will disagree with love and humility toward one another in our words, as befitting genuine Christians! To keep us on track, let's limit our discussion to passages in Hebrews only, not the entire New Testament. Immoderate tirades will be removed from the Forum and poison tongues will lose their privileges to participate. "4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." (6:4-6) What I am understanding it would be like knowing the truth but denying it for no particular reason with this I believe that the same principles that applied then also applies now because we all fall short of the glory of God, so we must deligently seek him and continue in obedience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms CJ Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 (Hebrews 6:4-5) What difference, if any, would you find between the description in verses 4-5 and a Spirit-filled Christian today? What is the writer's point in forming this description? "4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, What difference, if any, would you find between the description in verses 4-5 and a Spirit-filled Christian today? The difference I see is that as the powers of the coming of age arrive, knowledge increases and the revelation of Jesus is understood, that it will become harder for anyone that falls away to come back due to the fact that by the time the seconding of Christ appears there will be a deeper enlightenment of Him and the spirit filled life and all that we experience with it. Put it altogether from these verses above with even today and compared it to David's day or even the day of Jesus here on earth and you can see as this author saw that there will be no easy excuse to sin or give a good account of why you fell away. What is the writer's point in forming this description? The point is: " It would have been better to not of know then to know" 2 Peter 2:21 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelOnLine Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 Q2. (Hebrews 6:4-5) What difference, if any, would you find between the description in verses 4-5 and a Spirit-filled Christian today? I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godsanointed523 Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 What difference,if any,would you find between the description in verses 4-5 and a spirit-filled Christian today? What is the writer's point in forming this description? There is no difference between then and now cause it is possible to fall away from the Lord once we have known the truth about God.Not everyone who calls on the Lord will be saved but we were enlightened,tasted the heavenly gifts,shared in the Holy Spirit,tasted the goodness of the goodness of the Word,and have experienced the powers and the miracles of the Coming age so once we have had the light shine in our lives and we live then it is hard because God is going to come soon and the enemy is roaring against us,we agree to disagree in this area Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewell Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 The difference may be in the way we rationalize our actions. We do it for a "good reason" or because someone didn't deserve us to act as a Christian toward them. Sin is all around us....how do we avoid it....how do we know it is there and yet keep it out of our lives and out of our homes? It's easy to say "we can't" and then just go on. It's hard to stand our ground and exert our expectations on what/who we have around us - we can lose a lot....our jobs, our family. We need to put Christ first and everyone and everything else second even when we stand the chance of losing what we have on earth in order to gain what waits for us in heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dar Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 Q2. (Hebrews 6:4-5) What difference, if any, would you find between the description in verses 4-5 and a Spirit-filled Christian today? What is the writer's point in forming this description? Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. I don't see a difference between the Spirit filled Christian in verses 4-5 and a Spirit Filled Christian of today. The warning is the same today as it was then! To fall away, to apostatize, to willfully reject Christ and His teachings, is very serious indeed!! This is why we are not to drift away from such a great salvation, yesterday or today! Those hearing this word in verses 4-5 were going through trials for their faith in christ and some of them were priests ---- (Act. 6:7) And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith. Some were showing a drifting away, hanging onto some of the old laws. If they at one time believed what angels said to Moses, how much more should they, and we today, trust and believe what the Son as spoken to us in these last days?! We must hold onto the anchor of redemption, if we go back, we will be facing the punishment of disobedience from God, the I Am that I Am, the Almighty. Take heed of what could happen today! If we turn from God's Word, there are no more sacrifices for us, no more good deeds we can do, Christ is the final sacrifice, once and for all, received through our faith. I don't know about you, but when the word gives me a warning, I take note of it! I see the importance of this awesome gift of salvation from God, to little me, I also understand by reading the word, that I have my part to do in the covenant with God. God wants my love, and how do I show it? I first love the Son by trusting in Him, and the work He did on the cross, and I try serving them, by keeping His commandments. This is the same yesterday, as it is today. God wants our obedience and to put our trust in Him. He gave us a way to do it; Because of our faith in The Son, He gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit, and He gave us His Word to live by. I am taking heed to this word! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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