[Pastor Ralph]

Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians?

[Tabatha]

Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians?

If Jesus did not come to abolish the law, does that mean all the Old Testament laws still apply to us today? In the Old Testament there were three categories of law: ceremonial civil, and moral.
(1) The ceremonial law related specifically to Israel's worship ( Leviticus 1: 2,3 for example ). Its primary purpose was to point toward to Jesus Christ: these laws, therefore, were no longer, necessary after Jesus ' death and resurrection. While we are no longer bound by ceremonial laws, the principles behind them-- to worship and love a Holy God-- still apply. Jesus was often accused by the Pharisees of violating ceremonial law.
( 2 ) The civil law applied to daily living in Israel ( Deuteronomy 24: 10,11 for example). Because modern society and culture are so radically different from that time and setting, all of these guidelines cannot be followed specifically. But the principles behind the commands are timeless and should guide our conduct, Jesus demonstrated these principles by example.

( 3) The moral law ( such as the Ten Commandments ) is the direct command of God, and it requires strict obedience ( Exodus 20: 20 : 13 for example ) The moral law reveals the nature and will of God, and it still applies today. Jesus obeyed the law completely.

In a church where the Old Testament is abolished from our Christian Faith there is no Spirit of God. Man has taken control and their laws are pre- domanant
In a church where it is filled with legalism The Holy Spirit is not allowed to move in the gifting and the prophetic is not allowed. It is a sin filled church full of fleshly control.. It is not God's church it is ruled by man. And the people make their own rules. There fore there is a lot of disobedience. I would consider it a very carnal church. Much like the Corinthian church.

Many of todays churches are so full of man building his own kingdom. You hardly find the Holy Spirit there. Lots of self.

[Eudora]

Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith?

The only tendencies in the church today that I see to effectively abolish the Ten Commandments are in two different ways. # 1, We may keep nine of the laws, but not all ten. We have accepted mans law that says that we may observe on Sunday, the first day of the week, instead of keeping and guarding and remembering the Sabbath. The other is to sit by and let these monuments to be dragged out of sight and hidden. While they are just that, monuments, they have been there all these years and now that we live in a ‘politically correct’ society where everyone is free to choose their ‘RELIGION’ as they see it and ‘feel’ it, they have lost focus of truth. Truth is, we live in the world that He created and in His house are ‘house rules’. They were ignored in the garden, ignored in the wilderness, ignored all through out the Old Testament.

Let’s just face it. Jesus came to destroy the works of the Devil. The Devil was in the garden which introduced sin to man and man gave away their dominion. They gave away their communion with God because God is Holy and can not partake of sin. God gave rules to man in the garden and man broke the rules. Sin entered the human race. God was going to destroy all that he created by Noah found grace in the eyes of God. God cleansed the earth and started all over again. Along comes Abram and God finds favor in him because he is living a righteous life. God made a promise to Abraham that He would
# 1) Abraham was to be the father of a great nation.
#2) Abraham was to receive personal blessings.
#3) Abraham was to receive personal honor and reputation.
# 4) Abraham was to be the source of blessings to others.
(Genesis 12:1-3)

Abraham dies, God continues to carry His promise to Abraham’s decedents. Along comes Moses, God has Moses lead the people out of bondage to serve Him as their one and only God, they all die because they are not satisfied with God as their One God and they disappoint God and so He only allows the younger generation with the exception of Joshua and Kaleb into the Promised Land. He gets them settled, they take and posses the land again like they were supposed to but they too turn their eyes from God. They don’t keep the law and they turn to other idols and gods and thereby commit idolatry which is the same as adultery against God because they are His bride and they are found sinning again. God thinks ok, I will send some prophets to you all and tell you what I want and no one listens. Then God decides, ok, I will have to do something because He loves His people but because of His own written law, and because they have committed adultery against Him, He has to divorce His wife israel and send her out of His house.

Deuteronomy 24:1-4 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

God has to make good on His own law, so He calls upon one of His prophets by the name of Jeremiah: This is what God said through Jeremiah: ( 3:8 ) And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

So He sends armies from the surrounding area and they come in and destroy the temple and His people are dispersed through the rest of the world thereby being kicked out of His House.

Because God wants His bride back, He has only fulfilled one half of His own law. To make sure that He is not going against His own law in one little iota, He must die as well so that He can re marry His beloved bride. In comes Jesus.

This is I believe one of the largest reason that Jesus came back was to fulfill the law, to make it all work out so that he could remarry His bride. This would destroy the works of the devil because He provided a way out of sin, by death on the cross, He took away all of our sin and our transgression against The Law.

He brings with Him something that the law never had which is the born again in the renewing of the mind brand new life whom now God says that He is able to write the law in the tablet of the heart. Because by the power of the Holy Spirit, we can follow the law and we can become righteous in His sight because when we are truly convicted, by the power of the Holy Spirit, we repent and this is the deliverance that the law could not produce, but through the Grace of God, now we can.

Along with and because of Jesus, we can get back to the garden where it all began.. But then again, we must go through a trial and a testing period and fully trust and depend on God to get us through the tribulation just like the wilderness experience. When we realize that God is weeding out His garden by this trial and tribulation and burning away the chaff so He can store up what he wants to keep in His barn, then we can see a bigger picture of what the trib is all about. He wants people to know that he loves them and that he really can provide for them, but some will have to die to show the others the way, just like Jesus did on the cross. But Martyrs have a special place in His heart and their reward is huge.

What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? To me it is the righteous indignation to which a pastor will stand firm on, while he states the fact that the law is done away with and we are not subject to the law. This is the legalism that Yahshua fought with the Pharisee’s all the time because He willingly went out of His way to violate their ’man made laws’, in order to teach them His.

What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? UGLY and lost.

[Rosemary NoVA]

Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith?

Reflecting on this question, I can't think of examples from the congregations in which I have been active. Two congregations followed a liturgy which included weekly readings from the old & new testaments and the teaching from the pulpit included both old and new testament scriptures.

The sunday school curriculum followed a cycle of study where both Old and New Testament books were taught. In another congregation, the teaching is chapter-by-chapter through each book in the Bible with age-appropriate Sunday School lessons on the same track.

What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church?

attitudes rooted in man's natural inclination rather than Godly understanding.
"Ranking" of members based upon "natural" observations & prejudices (i.e. The false presumption that a woman who makes her living as a maid should serve as a custodian at the church rather than a healing prayer minister or teacher. Or a woman who serves as a VP at her company should naturally be an elder, not "just" a Sunday School teacher.).

Churches that produce servants-of-man rather than disciples of Christ.

What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians?

Like a social gathering where folks who like to be around others come and are gratified to be noticed and lauded for good works. Where self is confirmed and affirmed and the rewards of earth are sought and the rewards of heaven are unrealized.

[UncleBlake]

Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians?

There are some churches who would abolish the Old Testament, namely the Law from our Christian Faith, in light of a "Grace Only" doctorine. Both should be taken hand in hand. By this, I mean, as Jesus said, He came not to abolish the law, but to fulfull it. Therefore, the Law serves it's purpose in 1)giving us guidelines by which to live, and 2) pointing to the fact that we are sinful, broken human beings in desparite need of God's Grace through Jesus Christ. Christian Legalism in the church states that if we do what is right in the sight of God, we are saved, by living up to what the law demands...we must see by now that there is no way anyone can live up to that. For that very reason, Christ came to earth, took on flesh, and sacrificed Himself a Living Sacrifice to bridge the gap between God and Man. Legalism, in a church described in the question, doesn't exist...it's a thing to be avoided.

[toney]

Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians?

It seems that the last half of this past century the church has become so "grace" oriented that the law side of God has been diminished and diluted. The moral basis of the Old Law is still intact today. It is possible to be works oriented and lose the "spirit" of the law. Rules and "things" become emphasized and the spirit of Grace and Love is lost. On the other hand, when God's people only want to hear about God's love and grace, standards of holiness begin to fall and everybody wants to hear about how everybody sins more of less every day. Eventually it becomes more,than less.

[lulu 1931]

1.Yes I think that some churches try to be more "modern" and less teaching from the whole Bible.I think this is differntly affecting our younger people.
2.It is churches following the ceremony of the rituals of their church required by the laws of their denomination and doing this with forgiveness and grace.
3. Very sad and ugly...not many true Christians, mostly "Fareweather "church goers.

[jjj]

Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians?

People Pleasing becomes the focus of many churches. The socialization of churches to create an atmosphere that attracts those from the world often brings about the compromise that effectively abolishes the Old Testament. Certain themes (you have to wear a hat, you can do this you can't do that etc) reflects mans choices and can project legalism. This then creates conflict among members and other churches.
They key I think is that every person, every family, every church needs to be in constant prayer to God to always be in the place, spirit and obedience that God reveals.

[Cee]

Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians?

There are some churches that does have these tendencies to effectively abolish the Old Testament from our Christian faith today. A Christian legalism look like in some of the churches today as a cult to me. That kind of a church does not have a foundation built by God or His people to me.

[Dar]

What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church?
I use to think the 10 Commandments were, thou shalt not go to dances, thou shalt not drink wine, thou shalt not play cards. I am so happy that the Holy Spirit has taught me, Jesus came to redeem my soul, He has given me the Holy Spirit to help me live a life that is pleasing unto God, to treasure His Law.
It is by God's grace (I have a new heart) not by my works, just as it was with God's chosen people - the Jew's. It was by God's grace He brought them out of Egypt, not by their works, it was by God's grace that He brought them back to their promised land, not because of their righteousness, God tells us in (Eze 36:23) And I will sanctify My great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. -- It is all by God's wonderful GRACE.

What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians?
I see a church that does not have the Joy of the Lord, that does not like the "Light" for it hurts the eye. I think we could put the church's seen in Revelation 1-3 here; For 5 out of the 7 churches are given warnings to a church that no longer holds God's Law dear to them. God's law is a "light" that shines ahead of us, showing the path for us to walk, to walk blameless before God Almighty.

[Stan]

Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians?

Yes, today so many pastors teach and preach only using the New Testament and most know very little of the Old Testament scriptures. Some pastor even try to justify their sins by disavowing the Old Testament.
Christian legalism allows for people professing to be pastors to teach while living in sin men living with men and women living with women, justifing a life style that even Jesus condemned.
Church that have no moral standards allow so-called christians to do as they please and pastors to do the same. Where there is no morals in the church there is no faith just a worldly creed of its ok to do what I want. When there is no obedience there can be no prayer life or love for neighbor and certainly not God.

[Patricia A]

Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20)

Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith?

I know of some groups who feel the Old Testament is not relative but thankfully, my church fellowship and denomination are not led in the direction.

Those who insist the New Testament teaches that the Old Testament is outmoded and irrelevant for Christians today ignore the abundance of evidence to the contrary within that same New Testament!

What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church?

When I say these are legalistic, I am not thinking about those who believe every work of scripture and apply them in such a way that can be supported in the light of all of scripture. Christian legalists to me are those who take certain passages of scripture to imply the Bible says something that really cannot be supported in it full light. Also, I am thinking about those who try to conform to the letter without having the Holy Spirit so that they are unable to apply the scriptures with any wisdom or understanding. They are like some modern lawyers of our day who often twist the truth on purpose to achieve their desired outcome of deception.



What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians?

A church like this would be no different from society in general. People would live to do what they chose to do without regard for God's WORD.

[JanMary]

Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians?

1) Not in our church, but I've read that this is becoming quite common, along with no longer talking about sin, and the Blood of Jesus, because "it offends people". I've heard it said that because Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets, they are no longer relevent in some churches, especially some of the seeker churches.

2) Legalism is focusing on outward conformity to rules of man. ie: I was told once years ago, that it's a sin for a woman to wear pants, especially to church. When a church is devoid of the Holy Spirit's leadership, this kind of bondage creeps in. We didn't stay long in that church....rigid, cold, lifeless place, BUT EVERY WOMAN WORE DRESSES, and looked critically at the few who didn't.

3)I'm not sure how to answer the last question....I was thinking of the other extreme of legalism, which is lawlessness, but I'm not sure what Pastor Ralph was looking for. I'll look forward to reading other's input on this. Maybe conformity to attendance, or "the way we do things here".

[masika]

Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians?
-We are not very far from what was happening in Jesus’ time, many people say that we are free to do anything but the Bible say clearly that our freedom should not harm anybody.
The law is good for us even today because it will help us to worship and Love God in better way.
It also reveals the nature and will of God.

[JustJeff]

I have experienced a pastor who would preach that we are no longer under the Old Testament just the New and would discourage the study of it. At the same time, I've read pastors who rely on the Old Testament and the blessings to the Jews to start and defend a nation as a means to preach prosperity messages. So no, I don't think that there is an effort to abolish the Old Testament in Christianity. We're just confused because we don't wish to accept the whole truth that is the Word of God.
In the church legalism stems to fleshly interpretations of the Word causing traditions established by men and new laws that cannot be followed.
A church with no moral standards and no obedience to the Word of God is a false religion, not Christianity. Jesus calls these people who do many great works in His name workers of iniquity who do not know Him at all. They will be cast down before Him.

[s8nfighter]

Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians?

Yes there are some forms of worship which forsake the LAW. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Have you ever wondered about this verse? It really does go against the once saved always saved and anything goes belief. It actually goes back to Jeremiah 31 when the LORD says "33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the Lord. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." niv

Through the Holy Spirit we now know the laws of God and because of the grace of our Savior we should obey those laws out of love and not fear of the law itself. And as long as the Holy Spirit is in us no one church can effectively abolish the Old Testament from Christian faith.

Christian legalism filled church? Wow I have not seen that. Altough it is described quite well by the words of Christ himself. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn the other cheek. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also. 30 Give what you have to anyone who asks you for it; and when things are taken away from you, don't try to get them back. 31 Do for others as you would like them to do for you. 32 "Do you think you deserve credit merely for loving those who love you? Even the sinners do that! 33 And if you do good only to those who do good to you, is that so wonderful? Even sinners do that much! 34 And if you lend money only to those who can repay you, what good is that? Even sinners will lend to their own kind for a full return. 35 "Love your enemies! Do good to them! Lend to them! And don't be concerned that they might not repay. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to the unthankful and to those who are wicked. 36 You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate. Luke 6 nlt

I have seen many churches full where the words of Christ in the next few verses of Luke 6 have been turned around to promise great monitary returns when Christ is speaking of forgiving one another. To me that is like saying that God is some sort of slot machine in Vegas that pays out all the time. 37 "Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. Stop criticizing others, or it will all come back on you. If you forgive others, you will be forgiven. 38 If you give, you will receive. Your gift will return to you in full measure, pressed down, shaken together to make room for more, and running over. Whatever measure you use in giving – large or small – it will be used to measure what is given back to you."

It is too bad that the United States senate has had to resort to cleaning up our churches when we as servants of God are called to do just that.

Darrell

[Elwood C O'Dell]

Christian legalism in the church is found when “the believers” are bound to a set a rules and regulations as the basis for being holy or Christ like. The outward obedience of such said laws takes precedence over the need for inner purity of one’s heart as can be seen in loving the Lord with all one’s heart, soul, mind and strength and their neighbor as themselves.

A church where there are no moral standards and no obedience is expected of Christians looks identical to the way the world lives, acts and behaves. The manner of conduct, speech and behavior is just as immoral and sinful as that one would find in the venues of the world.

Can we see tendencies in the church today to effectively “abolish” the Old Testament from our Christian faith? I believe if we will look at ourselves honestly, with and open mind and heart, seeking the Lord’s directions, we will find the answer is yes, especially in those areas of moral absolutes regarding our behavior and relationships with others. Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not covet, thou shalt not bear false witness and so forth.

[Bonnie Nelson]

Q1: can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively “abolish” the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a “Christian” legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians?

The Bible tells us to beware of churches who teach false doctrine. We should make sure that the church we are with is doctrinally secure in its teachings. Many churches today skirt the issue or sin and preach only love. Yes, love is one of the great teachings of the Bible, but it must go hand in hand with moral teachings. The Old Testament is filled with war, and disobedience to God---but at the same time it always shows how God is willing to forgive His Children, the Israelites. So we too because of our sin nature will be disobey at times, but God will forgive us. That doesn’t mean that we should sin knowingly because He will forgive us---No! Discipline is necessary for one to grow. Discipline from God, from ourselves is what helps us to become more mature. Study in the Word.

Legalism is rules that are man-imposed. The Pharisees were great legalists. They had a rule for almost everything. God doesn’t say you get eternal life if you follow the rules. He says by grace are you saved…it is a gift. Rules that are imposed by man, even though some may be good, are not necessarily always correct. In my opinion, legalism becomes a way to judge people. Oh, you smoke, or your drink---that’s not right!

A church that does not have some type of moral code creates chaos in their membership. Anything goes. An example of this is the Church of the Jedi—in New Wales, NZ. God admonishes us to be careful of these. If it is not based on His Word then it is not doctrinally correct.

[Sherylle Ladner]

Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians?

The Bible is both the Old and New Testaments. When Jesus spoke, he took from the Old Testament to bring His point across to the people. If a church "abolish" the Old Testament, then they are going against the teachings of Jesus. We must reflect on both Old and New Testaments. Without them, where are we going.

Since Legalism is man-made, not God-made, then it has no place in the church. BUT you do have those who like to become the legalist of the church. Always telling the pastor of church what he/she can do and not talking to the people who it effects. A church that has no moral standards and no obedience, it reflects in their attitude towards people of the church. It creates choas in the church and keeps the people guessing.

[Don W]

Yes, many churches don’t have much if anything to do with the Old Covenant in teaching, in obeying (especially the moral laws such as the Ten Commandments) nor seeing how the Lord Jesus fulfilled each and every prophesy and Law of the Old Testament; but the Lord Himself thought this was very important to teach some of His first disciples on the road to Emmaus when He opened all the Scriptures to them and told how He had fulfilled them all. Christian legalism is the making of everyone in the church to obey the law or legalism of the Word of God outwardly but not in an inner manner of which is being led by the Holy Spirit of God. First, a body of believers in a church must have their inward hearts and minds changed to repent of their sins and to turn back to know the Lord Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and then to obey Him and His Word to us through the prompting and guidance of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Legalism is when some people try to obey the Lord and keep the moral standards of the Law on their own and think that they don’t need the Holy Spirit to guide them into obedience but they can do it on their own and in their own way. WRONG!!!!!!! One of the reasons why the Law was given to mankind was to help point us to our sinfulness and our need for a Savior so we cannot make it on our own but need Jesus who fulfilled the entirety of the Law to be our Lord and Savior in order to ultimately fulfill the Law ourselves in Him and to be taken to heavenly glory forever to be with Him since He did all of this for us forever. I’ve been in such a church (unnamed) and there is no church discipline in it but only chaos and most everybody there seems to be “doing their own thing” as far as learning and obeying God’s Word in their lives. I have since left and I am going to a different church now that takes seriously church discipline (when needed) and church order, and obeying the Word of God through the Holy Spirit, from both covenants (the Old and New Testaments) because they both have the Lord Jesus Christ in them as the New Covenant is a fulfillment of the Old because of Him. The people in the church I’m attending now seem to be growing in their obedience to the Word and growing closer to the Lord every day, and much more loving and Scriptural then the first church I mentioned above. And I’m doing the same and much more happier and joyful then I was before this time.