[Pastor Ralph]

Q5. (Romans 7:14-25) Christians disagree about who is the "I" in Romans 7. Is Paul referring to himself or others? What is your opinion? (We won't all agree here, but we'll learn what the issues are by taking and arguing for a position -- lovingly).

[pickledilly]

I don't really know exactly who Paul is referring to. I've always thought he was describing his personal struggle to overcome the flesh. My cross-references for vs.14 included 1 Kings 21:20,25 and a couple of others that speak of selling yourself to do evil. I can see how this meaning could still apply to a regenerate person, because every time we choose to obey the flesh we have submitted ourselves back under the power of sin. I guess in that sense, any time a Christian lives in the flesh it's a sell-out to sin.

Regardless of who the "I" is here, I do know that I certainly relate to the struggle Paul describes in these verses as I engage in the battle to walk in the Spirit instead of live in the flesh. I have a born-again spirit, but my flesh did not get saved and it continues to draw me into sin that I don't want to do when I slip into self-effort instead of Spirit power. But Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! He is delivering me from this body of death, the flesh that will die.

[hanks]

Q5. (Romans 7:14-25)
Christians disagree about who is the "I" in Romans 7. Is Paul referring to himself or others?
What is your opinion? (We won't all agree here, but we'll learn what the issues are by taking and arguing for a position -- lovingly).
Initially Paul wrote about himself prior to his conversion. He writes that although we are dead to sin, we are all exposed to the temptations of sin. He goes on to describe his inward conflict with sin, and shows how far short he came of the demands of the law, and that the old nature (flesh), still remains in believers. I now feel that Paul carries on writing about Christians who have not learned to walk by the Spirit. He goes on to describe the struggle between the two natures in a believer. In committing acts against his better judgment the believer concludes that the culprit is not the new man in Christ, but the sinful corrupt nature that dwells in him. The believer has the desire to do what is right, but he does not have the resources in himself. It is only with the help of the indwelling Holy Spirit that he is capable of standing up to sin. This is a battle that rages on. He is trying to achieve holiness by personal effort, struggling with all his might, only to discover that the more he struggled, the worse his condition became. It was a losing battle, and no wonder, for it is not in the power of fallen human nature to conquer sin and live in holiness.

[Elwood C O'Dell]

I appreciate what Dr. Stott wrote and tend to agree with him as far as he goes. I also believe it further can be applied to believers today as Dr. Wilson stated. He stated that “these verses describe Christians who haven’t learned to walk by the Spirit.” I also feel that that the answer to this situation is found through the indwelling, purging, cleansing, empowering presence of the Holy Spirit as He is allowed to dwell in and have control of the believers life.

[reily]

Q5. (Romans 7:14-25) Christians disagree about who is the "I" in Romans 7. Is Paul referring to himself or others? What is your opinion? (We won't all agree here, but we'll learn what the issues are by taking and arguing for a position -- lovingly).

We have to be less complicated about this and see that paul is refering to himself but also so other can identify with paul in understanding the theology of Gods purpose in recording these verses. Paul want everyone to know that he sturggles with sin like others maybe not willfull sin that is obvoius to the flesh but certainly sin that stalks us, all of our lives. The bible make it clear that sin will be present till the end, then we will be free. So let us not feel that we will be free from sin becuase of this teaching but let us know that as we feed the spirit in our lives that sin will become less and less but if we feed the flesh then the opposite will occur. I beleive Paul was in his last days in Rome when he wrote this as he knew the end was coming and wanted us to know the war that sin creates. It is the spirits job through Paul of explaining the human condition

The last word of the verse serves the best as he says all then says " for sin shall not have Mastery over you"Power to dominate or defeat sin in our lives for Grace is the power!!!I beleive pwoer over willful and repeative sins Let all be humble enough to know that becuase of our nature we will fail again in sin but the grace of God is more powerful than sin

Therefore once saved always saved and I beleive paul was saved when he wrote these verses other wise he would of never undertood the war within.

[charisbarak]

I believe what Dr. Stott does. I think Paul set out to prove what a contempable person he was in God's eyes--which as you grow closer to God you see the sin more clearly for what it is & despise it.
It is universally true as well. I know I have felt more sorrow for my sinful tendencies--I see them as hurting Jesus and this hurts me as well.

[house]

I think considering when Paul wrote his letter to the Romans is a good idea. But before anything else I need to say I disagree with the statement in post #5 that "Paul was in his last days in Rome when he wrote this." In Romans 15:23-25, Paul writes to the church at Rome "… since I have been longing for many years to see you, I plan to do so when I go to Spain. I hope to visit you while passing through …"

So at what point in Paul's life was this written? From what I have studied (including the introductory lesson to this series by Pastor Ralph), Paul wrote his letter to the Romans while in Ephesus, before traveling to Jerusalem and before being arrested, imprisoned and eventually taken to Rome. If so, we know this was not written by a new believer as Paul would have written ROMANS more than two decades after his conversion on the road to Damascus.

I should also say that before doing this study I had always looked at this passage as Paul speaking of himself, and was not even aware of alternative interpretations. Although my mind is not set, I am leaning toward the view that the "I" in this passage is Paul speaking inclusively about "us" – humankind in general, for two reasons.

1. I don't see Philippians 3:5 and Romans 7:9 being about the same person.
In Philippians 3:5 Paul unmistakably speaks of himself with these words "circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee."
Yet, this "I" statement a few verses earlier in chapter seven just doesn't seem to match Paul's personal life: "Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. " (Romans 7:9) ** (I'm still not sure what that means.)

The Ten Commandments came in the time of Moses, how would "when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died" apply to Paul's life? When would Paul have ever seen himself "alive apart from law"?

2. I think Paul never forgot his sinful life of the past, but I don't think he continued to live it.
Paul wrote this as a mature believer, after over twenty years of living a close life with Christ. I don't see Paul so much as actually being the person he is depicting but as one being able to identify with such a person, so much that in his mind he can see himself as the "wretched man."

Towards the end of his life Paul referred to himself as "the worst of all sinners." (1 Timothy 1:15) Do you think he was confessing his current life, or only referring to his past? Personally, I do not see Paul at this point in his life being the individual described in the passage, literally struggling with sin to the point of being "unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin."

** ADDENDUM

After considering the various views about this passage, the conclusion I have reached is that Paul actually was referring to himself.

There is no doubt that what Paul is saying could apply to us, or to an unregenerate person, or to Jewish Christians of his time who were regenerated but not liberated. But I don't think Paul's "I" statements were about anyone but himself. Paul was usually clear about when he was using figurative language to make a point.

It is still very hard for me to see Paul as "a wretched man" "unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin" or "worst of all sinners" but apparently Paul could see himself that way. Perhaps the closer we get to God, the more sensitive we are to our imperfect, human nature. (St. Augustine's view)

To me, the benefit of this passage is remembering that I am not alone in struggling or falling short. If a saint was fallible, then I should never be surprised that I am. When you are running a race you might trip and fall. You can lie there and be miserable about it, or you can jump back up and continue.

[Stan]

Q5. (Romans 7:14-25) Christians disagree about who is the "I" in Romans 7. Is Paul referring to himself or others? What is your opinion? (We won't all agree here, but we'll learn what the issues are by taking and arguing for a position -- lovingly).

He seems to know nothing of the Holy Spirit, either in understanding or in experience.140
So who is this person? Stott concludes -- and I think he's right -- that the "wretched man" of verse 24 is typical of many Jewish Christians of Paul's day who were regenerated but not liberated. They were born again, but hadn't really learned to walk in the power of the Spirit, so as a result they ended up terribly frustrated. Stott sees the Old Testament saints in this category, too. They loved the law and were "born" or brought to faith by the Spirit, but not indwelt by the Spirit.141

I seem to agree most with this statement except the part of not knowing the Holy Spirit. We all can read in Acts where Paul was over come by the Spirit of the Lord and got all his revelations from the Lord. I think Paul was talking about himself and it applies to all men that we are often yearning to be like Christ but our weak flesh makes up lose that love,peace, patience, the works of the Spirit when we are confronted with problems of the day and confronted by harsh non-believers. I know I struggle in my daily life with dealing with the worldly problems I have to face, I long to be around brothers in Christ to get renewed.

[JustJeff]

Paul was a human being, just like the rest of us. While he lived in sin no longer the chances that he did sin occasionally would have to be pretty good. Christ was the only man to live a life totally free of sin.
Using myself as an example I still find that I am prone to mistakes, always unintentional, but sin nevertheless. As I grow in the Spirit I am able to identify that which I couldn't see as sin before.
This too is true. The more sin that I see in myself, the greater anguish it causes me because it grieves the Holy Spirit and hurts the Lord. I feel like a wretch. Praise Jesus for His amazing grace!

[masika]

Q5. (Romans 7:14-25) Christians disagree about who is the "I" in Romans 7. Is Paul referring to himself or others? What is your opinion? (We won't all agree here, but we'll learn what the issues are by taking and arguing for a position -- lovingly).
But I am carnal, sold under sin. This was probably, in the apostle's letter, the beginning of a new paragraph. I believe it is agreed, on all hands, that the apostle is here demonstrating the insufficiency of the law in opposition to the Gospel. That by the former is the knowledge, by the latter the cure, of sin. Therefore by I here he cannot mean himself, nor any Christian believer: if the contrary could be proved, the argument of the apostle would go to demonstrate the insufficiency of the Gospel as well as the law.

[JanMary]

Q5. (Romans 7:14-25) Christians disagree about who is the "I" in Romans 7. Is Paul referring to himself or others?
I think Paul is referring to himself and the struggle he lived before he was born again, but also the internal stuggle of each imperfect believer until we are delivered from this body of flesh.

What is your opinion?

I read the Bible to see what God is speaking to me. As Paul spoke about himself, I see that I am also the "I" because I too am fallen and in the process of, "I was saved, I am being saved, (my flesh is dying) and I will be saved.(fully, "at that day") I think as each individual reads Romans 7 and Paul's words, it applies to every man/woman. Yes, I'm free in Christ, but since I cannot live a perfect life as Christ lived, I sin at times. This is when I see that I just did "that which I did not want to do (say, think)", but thanks be to God, He will deliver me from this body of death, through Jesus Christ! V25. I walk in the Spirit, but to me this explains those times that I fail....my flesh is dragged around with me and sometimes rises up to have a "say", and then I confess and repent, and thank God that I am no longer unregenerate and without hope...He has given me His Spirit to walk in, so I don't despair. His mercies are new every morning, and one day, I will see Him face to face in my glorious body, where I will no longer have to worry about sin or death....but in the meantime, His blood cleanses me from all sin and unrighteousness, and His Spirit is transforming me into His likeness, one day at a time, but with a few slips here and there.

(We won't all agree here, but we'll learn what the issues are by taking and arguing for a position -- lovingly).

[servant for Christ]

Q5. (Romans 7:14-25) Christians disagree about who is the "I" in Romans 7. Is Paul referring to himself or others? What is your opinion? (We won't all agree here, but we'll learn what the issues are by taking and arguing for a position -- lovingly).

I think Paul is talking about himdelf and us. I think he is talking about the people that are under the law but not under grace, therefore we are under the dominion of sin. There is a struggle that is maintained between grace and corruption in sanctified souls. We will always struggle with sin, but we have the grace of God and the Holy Spirit to lead us in the right direction.

[June]

At first I believe-- Paul was talking about himself. Then soon realized that others were in the same position of wanting to do good but not able to because of the flesh and Satan. Because of the mind games it is hard to always keep the body for Christ if not under the law.
You can not serve (2) two masters--- so Christ is the only choice to make.

[nes]

[quote name='Pastor Ralph' date='Aug 16 2008, 08:19 AM' post='37964']
Q5. (Romans 7:14-25) Christians disagree about who is the "I" in Romans 7. Is Paul referring to himself or others? What is your opinion? (We won't all agree here, but we'll learn what the issues are by taking and arguing for a position -- lovingly).
[/quote

Initially Paul is the one who writes this letter, when he is writing this letter he is talking about himself, what he experience being the regenerated person and unregenerated person. but he is addressing this letter to the people (believers and non-believers) in Romans. and also to us now.

[Patsy Laycoax]

I think Paul describes himself in Romans 7 and to all others like him. It has to be someone who loves the law of God so it would not be unregenerate man. Even though we love God's law and are growing in our walk with the Lord, we still have sin to contend with everyday. Even mature believers have sin to contend with and if we don't keep our eyes on the Lord, we will find ourselves in bondage to it again and only the Lord Jesus can deliver us. But this shouldn't be the normal life of mature believer even though he has to fight against sin everyday, he will be an overcomer through the Lord Jesus Christ. Maybe this was Paul before becoming a mature believer as it would be for all immature believers.

[paulcrf]

Q5. (Romans 7:14-25) Christians disagree about who is the "I" in Romans 7. Is Paul referring to himself or others? What is your opinion? (We won't all agree here, but we'll learn what the issues are by taking and arguing for a position -- lovingly).

I would life to take this passage personal. I consider this "I" as my unregenerate me. This was me when the Holy Spirit was not yet working in me. I may not have known the law as Apostle Paul did, but I was as sinful as he was before I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior and come to repentance of my sins.

[McCollum]

Q5. (Romans 7:14-25) Christians disagree about who is the "I" in Romans 7. Is Paul referring to himself or others? What is your opinion? (We won't all agree here, but we'll learn what the issues are by taking and arguing for a position -- lovingly).

I look at the "I" to mean all that struggle with the nature desires of sin not just Paul, not just me ,not just you but all Once we experience the conversion from living a life of the sinful nature to the Spirital life in Christ Jesus. The battle of wrong and whats right get more intents and only the Spirit of Christ Jesus can have the victory. In other words only the Spirital man (The Holy Spirit) in us has the power for us to experience the promised victory.

[Ms CJ]

Q5. (Romans 7:14-25) Christians disagree about who is the "I" in Romans 7. Is Paul referring to himself or others? What is your opinion? (We won't all agree here, but we'll learn what the issues are by taking and arguing for a position -- lovingly).

1.I disagree with Stott analyzes. I believe that Paul was very much in the Spirit in speaking to the churches at the time he was speaking. God word is anointed anytime it is spoken and God anointed Paul anytime he spoke once he was born again and found who he was in Christ.

Paul already knew the laws of God. He was murdering in the name of the law. Once he had his encounter with Jesus he saw that the law was good but that the law can kill. He saw that his flesh had one part in him, his soul was another part in him and now he has another part to him which is his spirit man come alive by Jesus Christ.

Paul learned that he was a three part man now and that all could control in some way and he is conveying this so others struggling with this could understand. He understood that his flesh had lusts, evil desires, he understood that his mind, will and emotions(soulish part) would mix with the flesh and sin would be committed.

Paul is anointed, aware and teaching so they could understand their battle.

[Eudora]

Q5. (Romans 7:14-25) Christians disagree about who is the "I" in Romans 7. Is Paul referring to himself or others? What is your opinion? (We won't all agree here, but we'll learn what the issues are by taking and arguing for a position -- lovingly).

1. (Paul) who represents all of us pre-conversion (Paul's pre-conversion autobiography)

2. Adam who also represents all of us as fallen man. (Of people in general)

3. Israel, being the key word here. God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and is the God of Israel. If He then is our same God and He is, then we are in effect all Israel, although we are the grafted ones. (Of the Jewish people in particular)

I think the I, is every human being, represented in man, all whom have inherited the sin of man but, now through Jesus has a new inheritance, a freedom from sins nature, by the power of the Holy Spirit, because of the grace and mercy of God , whom is Spirit. (

[Sarah43]

Q5. (Romans 7:14-25) Christians disagree about who is the "I" in Romans 7. Is Paul referring to himself or others? What is your opinion? (We won't all agree here, but we'll learn what the issues are by taking and arguing for a position -- lovingly).

Is Paul referring to himself or others? What is your opinion?

I think Paul is referring to himself and to others. He describes every sinner before grace, including himself. He is not exempting himself. I think the emphasis on I here is telling, referring to the ego or Self, the will of the unsaved sinner.