Pastor Ralph Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iam4-1god Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? The way I see it, and I could be wrong, is the man is suppose to take care of the house-be a provider, make sure that Godly wisdom prevails, etc. The woman is his captain, in that she should make sure that everything goes smoothly. Pay bills, buy groceries, etc. Now, in the time we live in, it's hard for this to happen, cause it takes two incomes, and both parents are gone. I grew up in a house where both parents worked, but rules were obeyed. My Mom and Dad are home now, but when they were here, I better tow the line, even after I was grown. My parents did it and they were successful. Anyway, I don' think it's right for women to preach because men are the head of the house. That's just me, and I could be wrong. I hope my answer doesn't hurt anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eudora Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? The letters that Paul wrote are easier for me if I re-write them based on what I understand him to be saying. Likewise that women dress modesty with reverence & soundness of mind not focusing on an outward appearance of what she is wearing, but professing godliness, devoting herself to good deeds, positioning her in quiet attractiveness. I do not let the women teach or dominate men, but to be still. There is a reason that God created Adam first before Eve. It was the woman that was deceived by satan and not Adam; that resulted in sin. Yet, she will be made whole through her maternal duties with faith, love and soundness of mind. 1 Timothy 2:9-15 We must keep in mind, this was the beginning of the early church, not somewhere in the middle or even near the middle; but the beginnings. First of all, since the women did not go to school, they were not trained but in only what they were just now hearing. These men, these apostles had three years of training with Jesus Himself and no more than that, but of course, no less. Most of the 12 were fishermen. Paul himself was a Roman soldier, so this really was the beginning. In the first century , women were not trained in scripture so how could they be allowed to teach? But I hardly think that they did not teach their children. Do we think that Mary did not teach young Jesus as a boy? What Paul was offering women was quite extraordinary really. They were not mature yet in their faith, but yet we read as Pastor Ralph has shared that women did prophecy. Paul didn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pastornpw Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 I don't profess to have all knowledge and certainly don't have a definitive answer for this hot button topic. My personal view is that this was a specific situation and not for women in general and for all time. I personally find it humorous that churches will forbid women to teach from the pulpit but sent them to the basement to teach their children. I would rather hear them from the pulpit and know that my child was receiving sound doctrine. Anyhow I digress, how do we apply this to our culture today? Very carefully, there are many different views on this and my position is to tread carefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God's grace Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 Personally this instruction of Paul to the women doesn't cause any worry for me because I grew up in a country where society is matriarchal in so many aspects, but t doesn't mean that I should ignore such instruction. I was just blessed to grew up in a church where women are regarded with equality with the men when it comes to "calling" and "gifting" . Me and my husband are partners in the ministry where I teach and He preaches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jesus Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? Very carefully. We need to make a distinction between something being Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debbine Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 I cannot specifically say, but I believe if a woman is gifted through the holy spirit and she can teach why not let her. As long as she is teaching/preaching the true gospel of Christ and "men" want to listen I do not see any problems. As I've stated in my introduction my mom is a minister along with a few aunts. I've been raised with both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwood C O'Dell Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 I agree with Dr. Wilson on this issue. I too feel that the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charisbarak Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 I believe that what Paul wrote then is good for us. We're somewhat different culturally, but have some of the same problems=taking over the authority God has given to men. In doing that, the woman places herself under direct authority of God which she was never intended to have. I enjoy teaching children in Sunday School. I like leading Bible studies for women. On the mission field there is often no choice but that the gifted woman has to teach men--knowing God will raise up a man one day to take over. But I like being under the ultimate authority of the man--who has to directly answer to God for my well-being! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delivered Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? I don't read Paul's teaching to be, all women, at all times, are never to teach. Remember, God is the one that puts the calling upon us. How do you support your view? I remember Paul commending Priscilla, a co-worker, for teaching Apollos, the great preacher - Acts 18:24-26 Paul mentioned many other women who held positions of responsibility in the church, so, I believe paul was prohibiting the Ephesian women, at this time, for this reason. In the first century Jewish culture, women in general, were not allowed to study, therefore they did not have the knowledge or experience to teach. The church already had a big problem - false teaching being taught - this is a important reason Paul would not let the women to teach; instead, he instructed them to study, something they did not do, so they would not be deceived by false teaching. (good advice for us today) Today, women have every opportunity to study God's word, to prepare for the ministry. If God puts His calling on a person, being man, or women, that person should take the calling seriously. I would go so far as warning any pastor to think twice before saying no to that person. And for those called, remember, there is great responsibility that goes with teaching or preaching God's word. Each one will be held accountable for what they teach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? Pastor, I don't think it applies to our churches today. In Paul's day most church were in homes of the christian leaders, women serving food to their families might have heard only part of the teachings and interjected ideas that were not in line with Christ and His teaching, this could have been why Paul told them to ask their husbands at home. Like you stated being uneducated could also have led to the problem. Today our women are in most instances smarter than men and often have sounder reasoning so they are capable of leadership and teaching from my point of view. I understand that this is still not the case in someparts of our modern world but here I believe it to be so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nes Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? In my own personal view women could teach and lead in the church, in our time. the Paul instruction to the Ephesus woman not to lead it is because women that time has no educational knowledge, that is why they are easily to deceive by the false teaching. in 21st century church mostly women are well educated and gifted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I think that if a woman has a special calling and gifting from God, then she needs to obey God, 'for God knows the plans He has for us'. If the calling is not from God, then it will come to nothing. Men also need to have a special 'calling' from God and we, the congregation, submit ourselves to the Pastors. We have 3 Pastors in our church and the preaching is mainly done by these three men. There are also three ladies in our church who very occasionally, if they feel that God has given them a special Word for the Church, have been invited by the senior Pastor to give this Word. This maybe happens about once a year. Our services and our worship are lead by men and this works very well for us, praise God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moses 4 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? If verse 11 Paul refer to an individual, unnamed woman who was teaching false doctrine and not to women in general, According to Paul, women must be learners, and are not allowed to be public teachers in the church; for teaching is an office of authority, and the woman must not usurp authority over the man, but is to be in silence. But, notwithstanding this prohibition, good women may and ought to teach their children at home the principles of religion. Timothy from a child had known the Holy Scriptures; and who should teach him but his mother and grandmother? If verse 15 were not included in the text, one could easily get the idea that women are inferior to men or worse -- that women are beyond hope. Paul uses verse 15 to encourage women that they will be saved also in their God-ordained role as women and their valid ministry roles in the church. Paul's use of "childbearing" (NKJV) is a figure of speech Pax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raider Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 This is my view I don't feel this is applicable to our time. Ifeel that Christian menistry should glorify God,and bring the message of salvation. There are Christian women today with powerful ministeries that do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJeff Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Our church/mission (http://www.peoplethatlove.com) was founded, in part by a woman who became our senior pastor. She was exactly what was needed to "birth" a new church that works largely with the homeless of which the majority are men. As a strong willed matron she was able to give the tough love necessary to motivate people to become responsible citizens. I was one of those men. She was looked upon as a spiritual mother. She has passed and now, all of the men who lead the ministry owe their response to the Lord's call to her seed planting. She could never had accomplished what she did without the annointing from Jesus. Everything in the bible has to be taken in context to the time it was written. Culture has evolved to the twenty first century and is vastly different than that of Paul's day. What Paul wrote is applicable to men and women alike as we are all required to use our gifts as our Savior has given them to us (Romans 12:4-21) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masika Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? By God's grace, all men and women who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ receive spiritual gifts to equip them to serve together in Christ's body-the church. God grants these gifts through his Spirit to all believers without distinction and for the edification of all (1 Cor 12:4-11). No member of Christ's church is unneeded; each is gifted by God's will so that the church, though many parts, may be one body (1 Cor 12:12-26). In particular, the Bible affirms the valuable and necessary role of women serving in Christian ministry.2 A church in which women are not encouraged and granted opportunity to serve as vital members of the Christian community is both disobedient and unhealthy. Yet, while every believer is equipped by the Holy Spirit indiscriminate of gender, how each man or woman serves the church falls under the framework of Scripture. God's word is clear in its affirmation of women in ministry, yet it also gives specific instruction regarding the roles of men and women in the church. Thus, according to Scripture, Christian women are called by God to serve the church, with the exception of teaching or having authority over men in the church.3 However, it is not always clear how this biblical teaching applies in a given ministry context. The first century church did not have the various ministry positions, both inside and outside of the local church, that are present in our Christian communities today. The early church had no Sunday school teachers, music ministers, or seminary professors, so the Bible does not address these ministries as such. But this does not mean we can simply ignore what Scripture does say about men and women serving together in the body of Christ. Rather, we must relate the unchanging truths of Scripture to our contemporary ministry circumstances. We hope the following will serve as practical advice for specific ministry positions to assist believers, churches, and other Christian organizations in applying God's word for the good of his church and the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clement Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? 1 tim 2:11-15 has to be read and interpreted according to the context of its time - namely women during that age were mostly unschooled and therefore lack necessary training to assume leadership positions, and secondly they would be actively involved in the day to day running of their own families to be able to commit themselves effectively for ministry. since then, times have changed. today, women are out-performing the men at school - just crunch the numbers at any acedemic institutions; anywhere. some are even exceling at male-dominated professions like engineering, hard sciences etc though they remain in the minority due to differences in sexual endowments. women were and are designed to complement - not compete with men. personally, i have observed in 10 years of ministry as a missionary that the sisters are indispensable as support/back-up as they are naturally multi-taskers. indeed, 99% of secretaries are females. why? because they are able to do so much all at once! we men would crash & hang given the same multi-tasks to perform. amen? however, men are more focussed and know what they want & need - just look at shopping patterns. men do not browse/window-shop as much as women. we go in, take what we want/need; pay-up and are out in 30 mins? women can spend the whole day at the mall, because its part of the fun for them? and wow! so many distractions i remember a lame joke of a women at the mall eyeing a translucent dress; and the husband in way of discouragement telling her :- "honey, you can see-through it!" to which the wife replied, "not when i'm wearing it...." or what about most women's eternal struggle with having a wardrobe full of nothing to wear? anyone still remember imelda marcos' three thousand pairs of designer shoes & endless handbag collection? the present-day church should not; and must not have anything against women leadership in any capacity whatsoever. the sole yardstick being; and in conclusion i quote john c. maxwell :- 1) know the Way 2) show the Way & 3) go the Way amen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanks Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Q5. (1Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? We know from Scripture that a fundamental principle of God Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen Williams Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? Isn't is great that God loves us all. Glory be to God. We know in Paul's time women were viewed differently than they are today. I agree with Paul that women should learn. We as women should have the right attitude and manner when learning. We want to be submissive and not in an unruly manner. In the last days, God is pouring His spirit upon all mankind. We should all work together to get the Good News out to a dying world. Let us all go forth and be SERVANTS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah43 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? I have wondered and struggled with this question. Bottom line is, Paul said what he said, and if we are to follow scripture, then we follow it. I believe that both men and women can know God, the Father and the Son, through the Spirit and the Word. I don't think it matters much if women do not have titles in the church, that we can teach and lead in many ways, even if those ways are not publically recognised as teacher or leader. The recognition comes from our Savior, and those who receive the message we are gifted to bring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanMary Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? I've been in churches who held that women cannot hold any position of authority, and in others where they could both teach and preach to both men and women. After much confusion and study I've arrived at the belief that women can teach and preach to both women and men with this caveat: If the woman is married, she teaches and preaches while in submission to her husband and with the blessing of the church leadership she's in, and under the protection of their covering... and if single, she's under the authority and covering of her pastor/ church authority, not out there on her own, for the following reasons: v11 Let a woman learn in silence in entire submission the meaning of the word used here:silence: "quietness, tranquility, stillness referring to a quiet life, think before one speaks. Not to talk at random, or talking too much, to not babble, & to not cause confusion." This passage is written to MARRIED women who were interrupting the teaching and disrupting the church services, asking foolish questions, which embarrassed their husbands, and should have been saved to ask him after going home. This passage is about ORDER in the church. v12 I allow no woman to teach or to have authority over men (the meaning of the word used here:to have authority "Usurp authority, self appointed, undelegated authority, to domineer, seize by force, lord it over men. One acting by own authority, to seize by force a position that belongs to another. Domineering is witchcraft." I believe this is saying for a woman to teach and or preach, she is to be in submission to her husband (if she's married) and is released to teach/ preach to both men and women by those in authority in her church body. Submission is for the protection of women, not a means of enslavement or preventing their gifts from operating. Jesus broke the stigma toward women which existed in that society by appearing first to women after the resurrection and telling them to go tell His disciples what they had seen. Paul spoke of Pheobe a deaconess or pastor of the church of Cenchrae and urged that she be received in a manner that is worthy of the saints, and "assist her as she has needs" Rom.16:1 God doesn't discriminate against women, but has provided for their covering and protection as the weaker vessels (not as the weak minded vessels as some believe). Acts 2:14-18: The Spirit was poured out on ALL flesh, upon sons and daughters, who shall prophecy the will of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHARLENE G. Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? This is a delicate subject. I have heard some very good women Preachers and teachers. Also, we read in Galatians 3:28 (King James Version) 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. It seems to me that as long as the gospel is being preached in truth and people are being saved then it's a good thing. I'm married to a messianic Jew and he says that it was custom for men and women to be separated during services. There was a large curtain separating the two groups. Women were told to be quiet because they would of been shouting questions across the curtain, disrupting the service. And it stands to reason that if they were separated during the services it would of been out of the question for a woman to cross the barrier to teach. Paul's letter makes me wonder if 1 Timothy is the first recorded attempt of a women's lib movement. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I think that we need to look at this subject of women teaching in context, as a whole separate study in order to come to any meaningful conclusions. It needs to be treated relating to all mention of women teaching and or assisting to teach in scripture As Paul in this book is speaking of false teaching and problems in the church I am led to the conclusion that there might have been some problems with the women in Ephesus. So as not to detract further from the study at hand ,enough said for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spazzo47 Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I am a female pastor, obviously I've looked at this passage and have come to the conclusion that this was an instruction for the Ephasus church at the time of Paul. HOwever, I think even now there's some wisdom in taking this at a case by case basis. I was in a church as the assistant pastor where the congregation as a whole didn't think that women should be pastors. It does cause problems. I'm told that in a Sunday School class, they were talking about women in ministry and one person said I was the first female pastor he ever saw that enjoyed ministry. I was liked at that church (I still even get to go to their Christmas parties). When I preached, people not only had good comments for me, they let me know that they paid attention and got it. But, when the lead pastor left (I left at the same time), this congregation refused to bring in a woman pastor. There was some discussion about whether the superintendent (who makes recommendations to the board that makes appointments) should thrust her on them. The pastor is in another church, and I think that's for the best. I think that if she would have landed at that church, she would not have been able to get everyone under her authority. LIke I said, I am totally pro-women in ministry. For me the most compelling argument is to look at Paul's other writings and see how many women he commended. To take these verses literally means that Priscilla would not have been able to teach Apollos at all, just Aquilla. What I find interesting is the dynamic that women are able to influence men's views so easily. If that's the case, then I would think women should almost have to be in ministry because we can influene the men easier than men can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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