HeidiW

1) from how large a group does God remove sins in this passage? Hm. I see the word "many" quite a few times, but that is not the word "all" There is one phrase that states "the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." So, I guess it could be said from that one phrase, that the sacrifice of the Lamb of God covers ALL sins for ALL people of the world. But universal atonement isn't the theme of this passage, IMO. It is about the Suffering Servant, how He kept silent before His accusers and attackers, how He was led like a sheep to the slaughter: without making a sound. This question doesn't seem to fit this passage. Universal atonement is to be seen in other parts of the Bible (and the Calvinists can make a case from Scripture about Limited Atonement, too) but I think it isn't that big a part of this passage. 2) in what sense is Jesus' sacrifice wasted on some people? Note from the passage, how He had no form nor majesty that we should desires Him. He was despised and rejected by human beings. To this day, the Lord Jesus is despised and rejected, as made clear by how severely the Church is persecuted in the world. "He was despised and we esteemed Him not." "Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows YET WE ESTEEMED HIM STRICKEN..." People laugh at Jesus. Turn away from Him. It does go against human nature for weakness to be the foundation for all good, yet clearly in this passage, the Servant is portrayed as negligible, not worth noticing, undesirable to human beings. In God's economy, the weakness of the Suffering Servant brings about the removal of many iniquities and the transgressions of many people. In God's economy, a kernel of wheat does not bear fruit unless it first dies. Death and life go together. There is no life for us, if we do not die to ourselves, go against our own nature and see the beauty and wonder of Jesus, the undesirable one, the one who we esteemed NOT. It isn't something we in ourselves can do, to go toward the One who is despised and rejected. many people reject Him because He "had no form or majesty...and no beauty that we should desire him". That is, just looking at Him with a heart that is unchanged, we ALL reject Him. When He suffered for us, we said "God has stricken Him!" not considering that it is OUR SINS that took Him to that place. Because great good came out of extreme weakness, His ministry is difficult or impossible for the human mind to grasp,and therefore many people reject Him. Some people go to their graves, rejecting the Savior. this doesn't change the fact that He died for them and wants them with Him. But i also think God does a heart change in people, to bring them to a place of accepting Him. Parallel truths: the will of man, to reject Him or receive Him; the will of the Father to work in people's hearts as He will, so that it is His will and not by the will of any man, that we are saved. From this passage, I think Jesus is not attractive nor desirable for us to naturally go to Him. I think it requires a work in our hearts, and I think only God can do that. Why else would we cease to hide our faces from Him and turn to Him and hear about His dying for us? If He is not beautiful to look at, humanly speaking, and has nothing about Him physically to make Him appealing, and we despise and reject Him because He is a man of sorrows and grief, then the question is "Why do some people turn to Him? Why do some people go from rejecting and despising, to receiving and loving Him?" It isn't that the sacrifice is wasted on some people. It is that the sacrifice works redemption and salvation in any who DO turn to Him. I think this has given me plenty to ponder for the day! whew!

Rex, you said "Salvation is not just a mental assent to faith in Christ, is it? Does He not require some physical manifestation of our choice to put our faith in Him? I believe He does." Is this baptism, then? Receiving pardon from is more than mental assent, to be sure. It requires a life given to Him "living sacrifice" as Romans 12 puts it. I think maybe baptism is the required action He wants of us. It says "Repent and believe, and be baptized" in Acts...

I think the primary purpose of the sacrificial system in Moses' Law was to show how ugly sin is, and how horrific its consequences. I think we can find a modicum of anger at sin, when we consider the bloody mess that was made, in order to make atonement. It teaches us that we may not approach God, but must first cleanse ourselves, because He is holy and pure, and will not receive us without the sacrifice. HOWEVER, it is clear through Scripture that God does not desire animal blood. He isn't hungry for our bulls and goats, but desires us to bring a broken heart and a contrite spirit (Ps 51) Those are the only sacrifice He receives: true repentance and wholehearted devotion to Him alone. Don't bring a bloody lamb if your broken heart is not given. Don't feast in celebration of HIS holiness, if you are not broken by your own lack of holiness. God desires us to be near Him, but in order to do that, He must first show us how hideous is our sin to Him. When our heart is broken over the ugliness and wretchedness of our own condition, then He receives THAT sacrifice. That broken heart that only desires to be near Him, but can't because of sin. THAT heart, God receives and blesses us with joy unspeakable. Amen! Awesome, awesome God, full of goodness, light, love, and peace!

God desires us to be with Him. He gives us life in Himself, but we are dead in sins and cannot be near Him or with Him. So, in His mercy and love for us, He provided a way for us to be near Him. That is, He commanded His people to bring animals and sacrifice them, offering their blood. This atoned for one year of sins, but the sacrifice must be made again the following year, over and over again. Because it had to be repeated every year, it is clear that animal sacrifices did not atone for human sin. If animal blood could do the job, no need 1) to ever sacrifice again or 2) for the Lord to offer Himself. The book of Hebrews says "It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins" Pastor Ralph mentioned something that I'd never gotten from Hebrews before. That is, that because animals are lesser than humans, their blood is insufficient for our sins. It had to be one who was higher than us, that is Jesus the GodMan, the Lamb given by God. And someone on this board, in a previous study, pointed out that we human beings are made in His image, therefore it had to be a Human Being's blood that would suffice for humanity's sin. This just bolsters the point that the sacrificial system in place from the day of Moses was simply a picture. It portrayed the ugliness and horror of sin, and pointed to the need of an Innocent Sacrifice...but the sacrificial system was NEVER enough to cleanse from sin. It had to be the blood of a pure and perfect Human Being to cleanse the sins of sinful human beings. this is a new insight for me into the book of Hebrews. Thanks for bringing that out so well.

Basic elements: 1) confession of sin 2) an innocent animal, that is costly 3) laying hands on the animal's head, thus placing one's sins on the animal 4) the sinner must make the kill himself, slitting the throat of the animal 5) blood is collected and the priest applies to the horns of the altar 6) the fat is burned on the fire of the altar 7) the priests ate some sacrificial animals; the sinner and family ate others Elements still necessary: confession of sin. transfer of my sins to the Lamb of God Death of the Lamb, "by my own hands" (that is, it is my sin that killed Him)(that is, I must recognize the ugliness and horror of my own sin) The Lamb's blood offered before God What is not necessary anymore: We don't bring animals to the Lord anymore. The blood of the Lamb of God is sufficient, whereas the blood of bulls was necessary every year. The book of Hebrews is clear on the matter: the animal sacrifice required by God was fulfilled in the Lord Jesus, and He put a permanent end to them when the temple was destroyed. The destruction began when Jesus died...the veil was torn in two, from top to bottom, and the Holiest Place was made open. That was the beginning of the end for ritual sacrifice in the temple. In 70 AD, it came to a permanent end. No more ritual slaughter. All of the OT sacrificial law was a picture of the coming Messiah. All of it points to Him, who laid Himself down for our sakes. Amen. What a passionate love for us He has!

right on. I know you posted last year, but this answer hits it dead on. All the blood is repulsive, whether city living or rural. God made the law "full of blood" for a REASON: so that we humans can see just how ugly sin is. How burdensome it is, too, for a sinner to bring a calf or a lamb or a kid, or even two doves, and cut them open, drain the blood, present the slaughtered animal. Repulsive, and burdensome.

It is the blood that repels. Thinking about the law of Moses, and the killing that took place, and the blood EVERYWHERE. The priest had blood smeared on the lobes of his ears, his big toe, the hem of his robes. Blood was applied to the horns of the altar, and even the "small" sacrifice of doves involved catching the blood in a basin. Blood has a distinct odor, is slippery and dangerous on the ground. There must have been a lot of noise and animal smells also. But there is also a repulsion in the idea that an animal, which is incapable of sinning, must give its life so that a human being, sinful to the core, can have his or her sins forgiven. It isn't FAIR! An innocent life given for the life of a wretch? City people don't see food animals anywhere. They have animals as pets, and as Pastor Ralph mentioned, meat eaters don't have to see what their life decisions mean to the animal world; when they have a bbq, they run to the market and grab a slab or two of meat that is chilled, sitting on a little styrofoam tray, and sealed up in plastic. There is no blood there. People in rural settings do witness the death of their meat. Well, not so much these days, but in generations past, if mom was planning chicken for dinner that night, all she needed was a hatchet and a place to pluck feathers. Killing meat to eat is one thing; killing an animal to atone for my sins is different. Hm. But the passover lamb WAS eaten at a family feast, after being slaughtered in ritual sacrifice. hm.

They say anger is always a secondary emotion, that some other emotion such as hurt or sadness happens, and anger is a way to cover it up. Also, I just read yesterday that all cultures know what anger, sadness, disgust, and other "negative" emotions look like, across cultural boundaries, but the social cues for joy, appreciation, contentment, etc are difficult for people from different culture to recognize in each other. I don't know what that means, just thought it was interesting. But I know for a FACT that I have experienced raw anger, that wasn't based on being hurt or sad or frustrated. It was a lie, and as soon as I heard the truth, I literally saw red. I have also been angry in response to hurtful or frustrating things, too. Yet I think God has raw anger always, concerning sin. I don't understand His "need" for blood sacrifice, that is why did He set it up so that blood must be shed in order for sin to be cleansed? He didn't "have to" bring blood into it, did He? but I do know that His anger about sin is WHY blood sacrifice is needed...maybe all the blood is so we humans could begin to understand how ugly and wrong sin is. Vengeance is the goal with unrighteous anger; justice is done when righteous anger prevails. When I think "Justice" the law comes to mind. As in, a court room, a trial, or the application of law in determining the punishment for crimes committed. The law is in place already; the judge determines how the law applies to this crime. God in His anger isn't bent on revenge against us, but is determined that the Law be obeyed. He is angry, but doesn't let that cloud His judgment.

The second question resonates with me, about the comprehensiveness of "sins of the world". This is a foreshadowing of the great mystery that Paul talks about in Ephesian which is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs part of God's people. Up to this time, the Jews have a unique place in the world religions, because they are monotheistic, because they worship the CREATOR! THE God. And anyone who wanted to worship God with them, must covenant with them and follow their law. they were forbidden to fraternize with the peoples surrounding them, and the gentiles were not allowed in to see any part of the temple rites. They are told not even to take on the habits of the surrounding nations (such as tattooing or cutting themselves). Now, John the Baptist is telling them that there is a Jewish Man...the Messiah whom they have been wanting and expecting...who will bring the whole world into His redemption. Yeah, this was pretty amazing stuff. IS pretty amazing stuff! The lamb being a sacrifice. Surely the Jewish people hearing J the B knew what "lamb" meant and "take away" and "sin" ...but here before them is a MAN! And John is calling Him a Lamb from God. A Man who is a Lamb? this must have been pretty difficult to wrap their brains around. Hm. food for thought, to be sure! Amen! Thank You Jesus, Lamb of God! The Lamb who was slain and now lives! Amen!

Greetings My name is Heidi. This is really cool, as I've been hankering for an indepth Bible study for a few years. I attend a Four Square church, but I consider myself Anglican and am active in a liturgical/Protestant chapel service that is very small at this time. I also am a member of The Prayer Foundation, being a Novice Lay Monk of the order of the Knights of Prayer. One of the requirements of a monk in the order, is daily prayer and Bible study. Looks like I've found it! This is going to be a time of growth and deep feeding. I'm looking forward to it! amen.