chenista

Revelation 12 has already happened. The woman was/is Mary who was impregnated by the Holy Spirit. Mary represents the Holy Spirit in its female essence. The child that she bore was caught up by God, which was / is Jesus our savior. Feeling in the wilderness is but merely a time of provision and reconciliation, redemption, and sanctification. This is where God is glorified and our flesh is crucified. The war in heaven is the one that is going on today - for we wrestle not with flesh and blood but with principalities in high places. Satan is overcome by the sacrifice of Jesus (blood of the Lamb) and by the word (the sword of truth) by those who love not their life unto death (those who are true apostles and guardian of the word - who walk in true spirit outside of the world systems, tradition, culture, Pharisee, and opinion). The woman (spirit) is banished and resides within the Temple in the wilderness. Our body (as a true apostle) is the temple of the Lord, the wilderness is the condition of the heart - where truth is written. The spirit prevails with the help of supernatural forces. The serpent then goes forward creating havoc with the remaining apostles (true followers, not just believers or those who call themselves "Christians" (Gentiles). This is happening today and has been happening. Revelation is not the future, it is a spiritual revelation of a physical reality that has already happened and has been happening. Everything manifests spiritually before it does in the physical world. The physical world is nothing but an "interpretation" of what has already happened in the spiritual world.

The Father and Spirit are two witnesses referred to by Christ when he was dispositioned about his authority by the Pharisees. The two lampstands - the lampstands before the throne (12) are the the apostles of Christ who are rich (oil) in and with Spirit. The Father bears witness and the Spirit - they are all - divine power and authority which was imparted to Christ by the Father and then he empowered with the Spirit. Christ imparted this same power and authority to the disciples when he departed. By authority of the Father and with the power of the Holy Spirit. The two witnesses are in essence - the Father and the Spirit.

Q5. (Rev 10:1-9) What is bitter about what you've read in Revelation 6 through 10? What is sweet? Why do we tend to reject what is hard for us to understand? What is bitter is that the Lord's heart is broken by those who do not repent and upon which He must inflict judgment. What is sweet is that He loves us all and that He guide those who believe, those who repent and that gives us "springs of water of life; and God will wipe every tear form their eyes." What could be more beautiful? Why do tend to reject what is hard for us to understand - because we trust not in the Lord. We are called to walk in faith and when we do not walk in faith, it makes it hard for us to understand. We are not to lean upon our own understanding, when we do - life becomes difficult for us - because we are not walking in faith. If we are truly walking in faith, it doesn't matter if we understand, we know and trust God first and foremost and our desires are not to control Him, but to be in service to Him and trust that He is truly in charge. If we reject, we are not walking in faith. If we feel we must understand, we have not surrendered and we do not trust the Lord above all things, nor do we love Him with all of our mind, heart, body and soul for if we HAVE to understand, we are loving ourselves and our life more than we love him. We are worshipping a false idol if feel we have to understand or when we lean on our understanding - we are outside of His love and He is not within us. He can't be, there is no place for him to lay his head if we are too full of ourselves.

Q4. (Revelation 7:9-18). From this passage what do we learn about the kind of people who make up the "great multitude" before the throne? Let's not debate whether they are the 144,000 or not. But what is their origin? What does their spirit within them cause them to do? What does the first verse of the song "Amazing Grace" have to do with 7:14? The great multitude represents believers who have perservered through the tribulations and have repented, their origins are mixed - they are of the multitude, neither of a specific tribe or of origin - there is no differentiation between gentiles, jews, etc., in the House of the Lord. They have been washed in the blood of the Lamb (forgiven). Filled with the Holy Spirit, they worship without ceasing, they are in service to the Lord for His glory.

Q3. (Revelation 7:1-4) There's disagreement about exactly who the 144,000 represent. Let's not debate that, but look deeper. From 7:1-4 what do we learn about God? Read Ezekiel 9, then answer: What is this seal supposed to do for the 144,000? (Please wait to consider 14:1-5 until we get there, okay?) Just as Moses was a bond-servant of God, the 144,000 represent the bond servants who are sealed and protected. They are believers - not chosen, but believers. The seal represents protection, those with the seal receive mercy by grace. Those without the seal are without pity and are utterly slayed.

The altar is before the throne of God (Rev 8:3, Rev 9:13) which has the power over fire ("... gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe" (Rev 14:18) refers to the body of believers. The souls are believers "yea, and if I be offred upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all" (Phl 2:17); "We are cinfident, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with Lord" (2Cr 5:8). The souls are the body who were persecuted because of their faith - they are at the altar which is before the throne of God. They are given robes because they are cleansed in the blood, they have overcome and will rule with Christ as those who are chosen - this is what they wait for, this is what all true believers wait for - the robe - the promise and covenant of the Lord to those who are chosen.

The Lamb is the only one worthy to open the seals - the Lamb who was slaim to receive power, riches, wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. In opening the first seal: "noise of thunder (...) behold a white horse (strength): (...)had a bow (God's covenant); and a crown (crowns are given to those who overcome) (...)". Against whom? "(...) the kings (leaders, prince, commander) of the earth, (...) the great men (grandees, magnates, nobles, chief men), (...) rich men (wealthy, abounding in material resources), (...) chief captains (chiliarch, commander, military commander), (...) mighty men (powerful, able, might, strong, wealthy and influential), (...) bondman (slave, those in service, devoted with disregard of one's own interests, attendant), (...) free man (not a slave, freed, exempt, unrestrained) (...)". In essence, everyone who has not the seal or is chosen. Is it just? The Lord is always just - that's what the scales (balance) symbolize. Integrity, a delight (Prov 16:11:1) (Prov 16:11 "a just weight and balnace are the Lord's: all the weights of th bag are his work").

As "chosen" we rule over the 12 tribes of Israel with Jesus. We are one in the body of Christ - inseparable by relationship (if we are truly walking in spirit and have forsaken ALL flesh) - we have a special God ordained relationship in which we are empowered by the Holy Spirit. We serve as preists as Jesus is a high priest in the order of Makesdiak (forgive the spelling). As one with Jesus, we are empowered with His spirit from on high. The Kingdom is within us - it is already here - if we do not know that, we are not complete in relationship with Jesus and still of flesh to deal with.

The Son did nothing but by the will of His Father, thereby when God glorifies us, we glorify God - the circle is complete. They are worthy of praise and worship with the Holy Spirit as the Godhead. Our relationships, if we are truly walking in spirit and not in flesh, are divine in nature and thereby mimic the relationship of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit as one in the same - bone and bone and flesh of flesh (as noted of divine relationships in Genesis). Our problem is often that we seek flesh of flesh relationships expecting them to be ordained by God and divine in the bone and bone and flesh of flesh - what God has brought together no man can put under. But if our relationships do not honor the character of Christ by reflecting love, forgiveness, free will, and respect - then they are flesh relationships and do not fall under those of divine nature and therefore do not have the protection of God ordained relationships "what God has brough together...". People often think because they sought a mate in the flesh that it automatically makes the relationship divine in nature simply because they "say" their vows in a church. That doesn't make any sense, if we could be saved by simply saying we are saved, there would be no need for the sacrifice. Relationships brought together by God cannot be set aside, they are protected and it doesn't matter what we see with our eyes - in spirit they are truly bone of bone and flesh of flesh. These are the kind of relationships those who truly walk in faith develop - anything else is carnal and of this world and we are not to walk in it. Their relatioship to us is the bone of bone and flesh of flesh - we are united and whole with them, complete and perfected by them - this is God ordained - this is divine - this is a protected relationship that no man can put under. Cheni

Jesus forsake himself for our sins. He was and is completely selfless and without fault - perfect and without blemish. Because he took God's will as His own, he gave his life as ransom for our sins - He did what no one else could do and He did it, not for the honor, glory, or praise - He did it for love, forgiveness, and surrender. This is why He is worthy of our priase.

24 elders clothed in white representing sanctification made possible only through repentence in the remission of sins, forgiveness, and the sacrifice of the lamb Crowns are given to those who overcome, remain steadfast, perservere, etc. Lightening, thunder, rumbles - awesome power and glory of God. Seven lampstands are the seven spirits of God. All of creation is represented giving glory and honor and praise (mind, heart, body, soul) Elders fall down and worship and lay their crowns before the throne (complete submission and acknowledgement that their power is of delegated authority) Weaping Music, singing, and prayer, praise adoration, appreciastion

Worthy is the Lamb All power, all glory, all praise

What a shock it would be if Christ did an impromptu evaluation upon the hearts of believers everywhere so see what words are really written there and how they are applied during the course of our lives. When we give our life to the Lord, we do just that and nothing less. It is no longer ours to live - there is no turning back. If one turns back, there was no committment in the first place. There are those of us who know and take it seriously. Our will is now His, our freedom comes by faith. It is obvious to us that He lives within us because we are changed forever. Once we are truly touched by God, we are never the same. I enjoyed your post and agree whole-heartedly. C Straubel

Churches were criticized for upholding doctrines of man above the truth and love in the Word. Churches were criticized because they lost their first love - they lost their love - the greatest character of God is love and he never interferes with free will. And the churches are rebuked for removing these true doctrines from the church. Jesus came to heal and to set the captives free - you cannot be set free unless you know sins. Chruches are praised for remaining steadfast no matter how they have fallen short. This is God's true redemptive glory. He glorifies us so that we may glorify him - he completes us. With these observations in mind, not much has changed in the churches today. They still fall shart (many in the same places) and they still perservere, sometimes stubbornly upholding false doctrines above the Word and the truth. Be we will be judged by the level of our understanding - and this is God true love for us. He understands we all fall short, even the churches. That is why is gave us His son - otherwise the cross would be in vain.

The Word has become so watered with false doctrines based upon cultures, traditions, opinions, and Pharisee that it takes a keen sense of discernment to sit through any sermon these days. You cannot know God unless you know the Word, faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word. So many "Christians" get invovled in church for the wrong reasons, often selfish reasons, without considering what they can do for God. The deadly sins are gluttony, ****, avarice, sloth, anger (wrath), acedia (spiritual sloth), and vaingloryand pride. They are deadly based upon the degree from which they offend against love. The seven virtues are humility, meekness, charity (love), chastity, moderation, zeal and generosity. Practicing virtues protects one against the temptations of the seven deadly sins and keeps your heart seeking the Kingdom. Apathy has its foundations resting upon the loss of your first love - Jesus. That's why we are to seek the Kingdom first. If we do as the Bible instructs, we would not be faced with growing apathy within the body of Christ and hence, within the churches. The problems with the church and with people is as stated above, the Word has become so "watered" with culture, tradition, Pharisee, opinion, etc. that we removed God greatest and most wonderful character from it. God gave us free will - society and culture, tradition, opinion, Pharisee, etc., has removed the free will and the freedom that Christ gives us through the cross by mandating unbiblical doctrines and attempting to support these views with scriptures used out of context completely divorcing the intent of God. People, churches, and society do this because they think they have a better way and that God had no way of knowing what our society would face today. Well the Word is the same today as it was yesterday as it will be tomorrow and God is not some weak link in a cosmos cycle - he is all knowing - when people think God had no way of knowing about what our society would do today - read the Bible again! It is all in there, sin is not new, nor has it changed. Bio technology forces its way into the chambers of creation and people of the church protect this mandate as if it came from God screaming that its okay to pro-create! Well it isn't! Only God can create life - only God was meant to create life - that was NEVER given to us - it has and always will rest only upon God - and just because we think we can, doesn't mean we should. ANYTHING not done in FAITH is SIN. We plant embryos and claim they are sacred human life - human life only comes from God - seeds planted from God - seeds nurtured by God - if someone is not healed by faith, they are not meant to be healed as we know healing to be! We are perfected in Christ, we are whole only when we are with Him. Believers never die! There is a reason for this and God knows what it is even if we don't. But we defend technoloy and forsake our God as if he is some helpless bythought on the sidelines of eternity - and we do this in His name. Have we no shame!? It's idolatry - it is very sad. God gives and God takes away - this is not humankind that can do this. All the glory is for God and isn't given to us to remove him from our lives, it is given to us to create a deeper and richer faith and dependence upon Him. Healing takes many forms - we associate it only with physical healing because we are so limited and so spoiled. We try to manipulate God with our prayers and demand that He do what we want Him to do, forsaking His plan and His will and we do this in His name. If we pray anything other than the will of God, we are engaging in witchcraft and we do it in our churches all the time simply because people do not know what the will of God truly is and to pray for it and believe for it and accept it when it manifests - because we are too caught up in what WE believe God wants! Many people are still awaiting a Mesiah because when he came, he did not do what THEY thought or wanted him to do. Selfishness is rampant and it masked so deceitfully and wrapped in scriptures used out of context that only those who know discrenment and the Word based upon biblical truths and ONLY biblical truths can recognize what is happening. And it is these few who are praying on behalf of the churches - for the movement of Holy Spirit to awaken the truths that are written upon the hearts of all believers. I suppose I've said enough about this now.

Entering into idolatry is the reason the Israelites spent 40 years in the dessert! Idolatry was the reason entire cities with all the inhabitants, etc. were destroyed! Anything you exalt over the Lord and your relationship with Him is idolatry! And you are not saved if you are worshipping anything but the Lord your God. One way you can tell if you are worshipping anything but the Lord is - if you had to give up everything - if you lost everything like Job did, would you truly still remain in faith and perservere? Would you truly give your life for your faith? From your heart - if you will die, you are saved. If there is doubt, you are not saved and you need work on your relationship with the Lord first and foremost even if it means giving up the bowling league, soccer for the kids, ceramics, a vacation or two, a home, everything you own and everything you are - relationship with the Lord is first or you are practicing idolatry, not faith in the Lord. I like to ask "what have you done for the Lord lately?" and "if there were no promise of eternal life, would you still believe and have faith?" Many people DO because of the reward THEY will receive. How many would DO because of their faith, not for the reward - but because they truly believe? These are the Christians and the chosen ones - the others are fooled. What dilutes Christianity today is that so many people SAY they Christians, but they are empty shells - they have no relationship or experience with the Lord. They can recite scriptures inside and out. Well Satin believes in God - and Satin knew Jesus very well - they were together before the fall. Satin can recite scripture - he is the great imitatator. Not everyone who says they are Christians are Christians that is why when the man told Jesus he had cast out demons in the name of Jesus, that Jesus replied "I do not know you." The man had no relationship with Jesus, but he did the work of Jesus in the name of Jesus - but that didn't make him a Christian. We are saved by faith, not by works. If the Holy Spirit changes us, we know we are truly saved. If we are not changed, we are not saved and nothing that we can do is going to make Jesus save us. The Lord will not be mocked. Like the Pharisees, they had their rewards here, there is no hope for eternal life for them. It is true of some Christians - some of them share what I call the kiss of Judas.

The gift of discernment is available as the Holy Spirit sees fit and if you ask for it as a true believer in the name of Jesus you will surely receive it. The greatest immorality takes place in our churches as scriptures are used out of context, or to support a culture and tradition which was not in the true intent of the writing - and in the name of God! This is using the Lords name in vain. Many christians exalt what they beleive their knowledge is above what is true and real of the Word. While sexually immorality is indeed a problem, Jesus forgave everyone who asked for it and he even replied "let he who is here without sin cast the first stone" and not one accuser stood! If we focus on immorality, we will see immorality. We find what we seek. If we are true Christians, we are to stay focused on the Kingdom, we seek the kingdom first - We don't even see the immorality. We worship what we give our attention to. If you are caught up in seeking out sexual immorality in others and in society, what are you truly worshipping? It isn't godly or Christ-like to seek out sin - it is godly to walk in faith above the things of this world. Christians needs to clean up their own minds - and seek first the kingdom. You will be renewed when you are born again, and the old you will pass away - including your need and desire to seek out sexual immorality. Focus first on the kingdom of God! Focus on your relationship with the Lord. If you are focusing on these things, you then know what to pray for in others. The enemy is the accuser and condemnor, not Jesus. There is freedom in Jesus and salvation - and forgiveness. If you are being shown what to pray for, be obedient and pray for it - enter into spiritual warfare - but be sure you are praying the will of God which is that everyone know Jesus and is saved! - Not that everyone is condemned for sexually immorality! Seek ye first the Kingdom!

Respondents are right about this, it is not only easy for a church to lose its first love, it is happening in almost all the chuches today! It is also easy for individual believers to lose sight of their first love as well, as a matter of fact, a sign that the church has lost its first is that the members have lost the first love. Churches and individuals lose sight of their first love by organizing their lives around traditions, cultures, attitudes, and pagan beliefs rather than the around their relationship with Christ. "Seek first the Kingdom of God" - if you are not seeking the Kingdom of God, you are out of relationship with your first love (and probably have many other "strifes" as well). Churches and people get caught up in the Pharisee or law rather relationship - they preach secular traditions in the churches as if they came out of the Bible itself! The Word belongs in the church, not doctrines, no denominations, not strife, not pride, etc. The Word is most important both in the church and in our lives. Regaining love is renewing your commitment to relationship with Christ. You can begin in a water baptism to renew, you can repent, renounce, ask for forgiveness, place your sins under the blood (after all losing your first love is idolatry and spiritual adultry - both of which are the worst of the commandments to break), get back into the Word and back into relationship with the Lord. Worship is a lifestyle, not just something you honor when others are looking. Who you really are is what you are and what you do when YOU THINK noone can see you. You cannot fool God and He will not be mocked! Love is obedience - "if you love me you will keep my commandments and these are my commandments, that you love the Lord your God with all your mind, heart, body, and soul, and that you love your neighbor as yourself." I take communion in the privacy of my own home in remembrance and to honor my relationship, renew, etc. and I also baptize myself in the bathtub if I must! We all fall short, coming back to our first love renews our faith and trust. We become spiritually stronger when renew and refresh. C Straubel

Jesus is the head of churches - the lamp stands are the churches, the stars are the messsengers - he is above and with all churches and messengers - guiding them into fullness and richness. Churches are not here for us, they are here for them. We are not here to receive anything from Jesus or His church, we are here to give and to share the gifts of the spirit to complete His mision, His vision, and His purpose. It is all about Jesus, it is not about us - it should never be about us. If you read Matthew 10, it states that Jesus is more important than your family, your sons, daughters, mother, father, etc. - it is relationship with Jesus and His purpose that is most important and should always be most important. We are not suitable to serve Him if we cannot place Him first in our lives - the Alpha and Omega - He is our first love.

Jesus as a lampstands seals the truth of scriptures once and for all. There is no question about his divinity or his excellence. He is exalted on high. In his walk on the roads of Galilee and Judea he faced similar obstacles and circumstances as other fellow "humans". In Revelations, there are no obstacles, no other proof that can or will be offered - he is the ultimate Alpha and Omega! It is settled - He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords and the only truth. Evoking visions - that of greatness, of truth, it takes my breath away. It is glory of all glory. I am honored to be His servant. Understanding this gives us humility, the same humility Jesus shared on His walk. It also gives us hope. Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word. He is the Word, He is our Faith, He is our hope and we, undeserving of His greatness and glory, are made perfect only through His sacrifice. I am in awe! C Straubel

First and last refer to the completness - In the beginning was the Word - Jesus was the Word, he was here in the beginning and through to the End. Revelations refers to the completeness, no other deity can come full circle - we are all ONE in the body of Christ - It is fullness, completeness.... It is ALL we need. He does not have to be proven, I AM - there is no other authority.

"Word of mouth" is the best form of advertising even in today's complex society - it is a well respected form - all advertisers know that people's opinions will make or break their products and services independent upon the amount of money they spend on elaborate and expensive marketing campaigns. "Word of mouth" has its roots, beginnings, and initiation in the Bible. This is the exact way truths were spread and acknowledged. The writer's of the Bible later transcribed the truths into the tablets which became the Bible to ACCURATELY preserve and spread the truth for all of eternity. Accurately testifying and witnessing is very important for these very reasons - the Word has not changed, but people however have grossly "changed" the Word, used it out of context to apply to any situation, and overshadowed the truths and intent of the author (the Holy Spirit) with culture, tradition, opinions, and Pharissee. Why are we afraid to witness? Some people don't understand witnessing in its many facets. As a christian, if you offer encouragement even a gentle smile to strangers, you are witnessing and reflecting the true nature of Christ and this is our duty as Christians. Asking for sinners to repent through repeating the sinners prayer and taking the Lord into their heart and lives is also witnessing - but is also a form of deliverance as well, and baby Christains who take this witnessing to this extent pre-maturely don't actually have the foundational truths to help someone in their walk. Spiritual vanity is rampant in our churches today as even seasonsed christians use scripture out of context - which is blasphemy, using the name of the Lord in vain, and exalting oneselves and socieities rules, cultures, etc. above the truths and intent of God. Some seasoned Christians "sin" even when witnessing because they overshadow the truth and beauty and simplicity of the Word with complex notions and interruptations from societies and cultures. Discernment is crucial in witnessing - and in order to have discernment, you must have a firm scriptural foundation and personal relationship. Many christians do not witness because they fear the rejection that often accompanies or follows the Word - however if these people would understand that simply displaying the TRUE nature and character of Christ is witnessing - they will more often be accepted. There is a time and place for everything and getting into the depth of relationship is not the first place to start with unbelievers when witnessing. People make witnessing and testifying complex - it isn't so. Jesus didn't preach to everyone, he blessed, healed, and forgave - in the name of the Father - this was his greatest mission and he fulfilled it well. He WORE the character of the Father for all to see and this was the greatest witness and testimony there is. Often when some seasoned or unseasoned christians attempt to testify about things they do not fully understand have a personal relationship or experience with Lord over, they can actually defile the body and turn potential believers away for seasons of time in which it should not be so. If their testimony is not rooted in bibilical truth, but in traditionn and culture (judgements and accusations - rather than love and forgiveness) it is better that they don't witness actually - just display the character of Christ with smiles and a warm embrace as if to say - "we love you, God loves you" because this is really what relationship with Christ is all about. God will forgive you for anything less than blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, the church, society, and people will not - true christians display and offer in testimony and witness the true character of Christ which is love and forgiveness - not accusations and judgements. Churches as well christians often defile the body with accusations and judgements - this is not the true intent of Christ.