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more thoughts on

A few more thoughts about Romans 5, verse 13: "

Romans 6:3-5 "Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into this death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection." In what sense does baptism bring about our union with Christ? I think being baptized fulfills what Jesus spoke of about being identified with him: "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven." Matthew 10:32 In what sense does baptism symbolize our union with Christ? What better way to identify union with Christ than the symbolic reenactment of Christ's death and burial (immersion) and resurrection (rising up from the water) of baptism? --------------------------------------------------- comments: As Linda mentioned in her post, I also chose to be baptized again (by immersion) as an adult. I didn't do it because I felt it was necessary to be baptized as an adult or by immersion, but I felt strongly that it was something I wanted to do. I am not against infant baptism, my son and my daughter were both baptized as infants, but I was very pleased when each chose to be baptized again as a young adult. These baptisms were also by immersion, but what pleased me was that they chose for themselves to do this.

According to this passage, at what point do we move from being under the headship of Adam to the headship of Christ? I can't say it any better than pickledilly already did: What are the implications of us having died with Christ? Satan told Eve and "her husband who was with her" that when they ate of the fruit of the tree their eyes would be opened. What a lie that was - what really happened to humankind is we were blinded! As Paul wrote to the Corinthian church: "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." 2 Corinthians 4:4 In addition to implications already mentioned, I think once we are "baptized into His death" we more able to "see the light," our eyes are again open. However, I believe another implication for those who choose to identify themselves with Christ in baptism is they can become targets of the Enemy and face new temptations. Remember that the temptations Jesus faced in the wilderness came right after his baptism by John. One final thought: although believers' eyes may be open to the Light, unfortunately in many cases we have a blind spot when it comes to the workings of the Enemy.

Adam was born sinless. Because Adam our ancestor was the first to sin, he represents the sinful nature which all humankind inherited as a result. I though the post from janco referring to inherited disease said it wonderfully: Christ set aside his divinity to be born human and, like Adam, was also born sinless. But because he faced the same temptations we face (and more), yet lived a sinless life, his sacrificial death redeemed us. Christ's death on the cross and resurrection was the initial defeat of Satan, sin and death itself. The power of Satan and sin were broken with death of Christ, although not completely. The final defeat of these enemies will not come until Christ returns, with death being the final enemy to be defeated. "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death." I Corinthians 15:21-16 (NIV)

Sarah - very well said! (but I'll post my answers anyway) Can there be sin without law? If you only look at sin as violation of a law or "missing the mark" how can you break rules that don't exist? How can you "miss" a target before one is put up? But if you also look at sin as rebellion against God, Paul's words in verse 13 make sense ("for before the law was given, sin was in the world"). What if you are a teenager and your parents didn't say "be home by midnight." Can you break a curfew when you don't have one? (you bet, by staying out 'til dawn!) You know in your heart it's the wrong thing to do, and you do it anyway. God has also written the law on man's heart (Romans 2:14-15). Although there was no specified law against murder, when Cain killed his brother he knew he had done wrong. The law defines boundaries of right and wrong and our violations of God's law are a measure of our rebellion against God. And the more laws there are, the more "trespasses" there can be. Adam and Eve had only one rule to obey and broke it. After God gave the law, besides what was written on our hearts there were additional ways to trespass (the third commandment and keeping the Sabbath to name two).

"In the name of all competitors, I promise we shall take part in these Olympic Games, respecting and abiding by the rules which govern them, committing ourselves to a sport without doping and without drugs, in the spirit of true sportsmanship, for the glory of sport and the honor of our teams." At the opening of the Olympic games when an athlete from the host country holds a corner of the Olympic flag and says these words, he or she is taking this oath on behalf of all the competing Olympic athletes. Likewise one Olympic judge takes an oath on behalf of all the Olympic officials and referees. The members of each group, all the Olympic athletes and all the judges and referees, are tied to this person because he or she is one of them. What validity would there be if someone outside the group took the oath

JAMES 1:2-4 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. I have been pondering "rejoicing in our sufferings" and was looking at posts in a similar discussion. (James: Practical Christianity - Experiencing Joy in Trials) This is from a post by Angus, aka apratt, which I think bears repeating here:

In this passage reconciliation speaks of God restoring things to the way they were meant to be. We cannot be in fellowship with God until the matters of our sins and sinful nature have been addressed. By Christ's death we have been justified and our sins are forgiven. Now, by Christ's resurrection life, we are able to be transformed into new creatures, the way we were meant to be. I like the way Romans 5:10 is translated in the Living New Testament: "And since, when we were His enemies, we were brought back to God by the death of His Son, what blessings He must have for us now that we are His friends, and He is living within us!"

We can rejoice in our sufferings and trials because they have a purpose; it is through them that we grow. Going through testing and enduring suffering (perseverance) builds strength (character). Hope comes when you can look back and see what you have endured in the past, and especially when you can see that God was with you then, He is with you now, and He will be with you in the future. That He was with you and got you through yesterday, and He will be with you and will get you through tomorrow, is hope.

I just wanted to add these thoughts about being justified from Brennan Manning: “Justification by grace through faith means that I know myself accepted by God as I am. When my head is enlightened and my heart is pierced by this truth, I can accept myself as I am. Genuine self-acceptance is not derived from the power of positive thinking, mind games, or pop psychology. It is as act of faith in the God of grace.” That’s from The Ragamuffin Gospel, page 46. On the very next page, Brennan Manning adds: “The acceptance of self does not mean to be resigned to the status quo. On the contrary, the more fully we accept ourselves, the more successfully we begin to grow. Love is a far better stimulus than threat or pressure.”

Yes, it is quite a question to start the course! But I think it is important that we all answer

Greetings fellow "newbies"! I found the introduction lesson very interesting (Thanks Pastor Ralph!) and I look forward to going through this with you all. ------------------- Peace! Tom Sept. 19, 2008 Well, I've enjoyed my first week here and I've learned a lot! Two things I'll mention to others who are new here: 1. You can EDIT what you have written after it's posted! (that's how I added this) look for the edit button down at the bottom of the page 2. The RICH TEXT EDITOR is wonderful. To change from the plain text editor: click on My Controls at the top of this page look for Options in the lower, left panel and click on Board settings scroll to the very bottom and change Type of editor to RICH TEXT EDITOR