SojournersHeart

Hi, I am Elle from Missouri where I am in children's ministry. I don't get a lot of adult interaction and there are no Bible studies available to me locally, so I like the on-line study for something that doesn't involve yarn and glue

I have had the same reaction! I really appreciated your comments about your mother's attitude toward her breast cancer. I have never had anything that bad happen to me, but I tend to be a whiner and used to get mad at God and say things like, "Yeah, if you are such a loving God, why don't you do something about this!" Job really helped me get a handle on that.

I have always wondered about the climate around Bethlehem...so I looked it up: Jerusalem is situated at a relatively high altitude, and therefore experiences quite cold, wet winters with occasional light snowfalls. By contrast summers are dry and warm, with low humidity and temperatures averaging around 75

This was the way events were dated in the ancient world. Years were not numbered; rather events were placed in time in relation to when rulers were in office and to significant events during their term. This was Luke's way of establishing the historicity of Jesus' life.

Names had great significance, which is why God changed some names: Abram (honored father) to Abraham (father of many nations) or Jacob (usurper) to Israel (one who wrestles with God)....Simon to Peter, etc. Jesus' name was of even greater significance because His role in salvation history was pivotal. By naming His Son "Yahweh saves," God makes it clear that His own power is behind the kind of salvation Jesus brought, though the type of salvation wasn't fully revealed until Jesus' resurrection. I wonder, if God had sent a military leader instead, to effect a political overthrow, would he have chosen a name that was more militant in nature?? I think that part of the reason God revealed the name to both may have been a sign or confirmation to each other that they were getting the same message & "on the same page." Also, it was just so important, God needed them to be in agreement when it came time to make it official.

You touched on a major issue in my faith! Studying Mary has opened my eyes--if Mary's obedient path wasn't easy why should I expect to avoid suffering????

Mary didn't have very good options--she could be stoned by the village if Joseph had desired it--not her option but his--surviving that option, she could live in shame under her parent's protection, but shunned by the village. She could have gone back to Elizabeth, who was already convinced that Mary's pregnancy was miraculous rather than moral failure. The other option open to other young women in her apparent situation would be to sell herself as a servant if anyone would take her or to give up to a life of anonymity and prostitution in a large city far away, but I don't think that was really an option for Mary. I wonder, if Joseph had divorced her quietly if she would have sought the protection of Zechariah and Elizabeth. I think a good point is made in the above post, that God had already worked out the details....Perhaps that is true in our own lives and what gets us into trouble is taking things into our own hands. I think Joseph understood the spirit of the Jewish Law as Jesus later taught it--that the Law requires first that we love God, second that we love our neighbor as ourselves. Joseph's righteousness was a meeting of justice and mercy. His sense of Justice told him Mary had broken the law and was no longer worthy of his engagement, but his sense of mercy told him to spare her life and her dignity (as much as was in his power) as well, by being as lenient as he could be in following the law. In the eyes of the community, Joseph would have been justified in seeking vindication (and in fact would have expected it or even thought him week for not seeking the full extent of the law), but he was willing to set aside his pride and pain and do what was best for Mary. Sometimes when my daughter is upset because she has made a mess of things, I try to offer comfort and she says, "but I don't deserve it." Lately I have been telling her "it's not about what you deserve; it's about what you need." Joseph did not give Mary what she appeared to deserve, he wanted to give her what she needed.

Those are the words I would use to describe sewing....I hadn't thought about Jesus ever really having such an experience in common with one of my own. I will be thinking about that all day today. Wow.

In addition to learning a marketable skill, with which he likely supported himself until he began his ministry, I think Jesus also learned what it was like to be "working class" in a profession which would have brought him into contact with many people of various stations and ranks in life. Had he been born the son of a political king, he would have been sheltered from the realities and challenges of "real life." Interesting to note that while God did not place Jesus with wealthy influential human parents, he also did not place Jesus in the absolute lowest "caste" where he would have been far less likely to come into contact with religious and community leaders at all. I hadn't really thought about that before.

I have never had a problem with Mary referred to by these titles. When I watch video dramatizations of the crucifixion I always watch through Mary's eyes. What could be worse for a mother than to watch her child be tortured to death? As a mother myself, I could almost get angry with God for making her go through that. I think it is right that we honor Mary for the role she played in salvation history. I am not comfortable with the veneration of Mary--honorable titles and respect are one thing, but I just cannot reconcile prayer to and worship of Mary with the commands to worship God alone, and not to make any graven images.

Mary's response to the angel was one of complete submission, which is rare in the Biblical record. She doesn't bargain, she doesn't take things into her own hands, she just submits and lets things happen to her, knowing that it won't be easy and that it will be a huge responsibility. She submits as a servant, relinquishing all rights to self. This is as nearly perfect model of obedience, next to Christ, as we can find in the Bible. She was aware of some of the initial hardships--bearing the shame without being able to explain or defend herself before her village, being at the mercy of Joseph--then there was also the unknown. But she didn't ask to know how it would turn out or what was in it for her; she just submitted. These get right to the point in my life. I have a hard time giving up that "right to self," I guess. I get resentful that following God can be so difficult, misunderstood, and under appreciated. It is hard for me to remember that Jesus said "If anyone wants to be my disciple, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me." This is what we consent to. We have to remember that the cross is hard, and few of us will ever have to bear a cross as difficult as Christ's--or Mary's, or those of the early martyrs (or contemporary martyrs).

In the past, folks have been burned at the stake for statements like that! Look at John 1:14, Philippians 2:6-7 and Colossians 2:9; Jesus was both fully human and fully divine, as our Nicene fore-fathers found it necessary to state unequivocally as official church doctrine: "For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven, was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became truly human." --Nicene Creed If Jesus had not been fully human, He could not have suffered and died. Christ's very human death is as essential to our doctrine of salvation as his divine, sinless nature and vindication through resurrection.

The virgin conception is one of the hardest of the Christian truths to accept, but also one that is quite central to all we believe about Jesus Christ. When I talk to kids in our children's ministry about Christ's divine and human natures, often they will say Jesus was "half and half"--half divine and half human. Even the youngest with only rudimentary math skills understand that 2 halves make a whole. So when I correct them and say that Jesus was "whole and whole" they are so puzzled! How is it that where Christ is concerned 1+1=1? (Similar to trinity math: 1+1+1=1) Jesus had to come from a human mother to be fully human; and to be the sufficiency of Divine Grace, He had to be fathered by God. He had to suffer real human pain; and He had to die a real human death--this was achieved by being fully human. Yet His divine nature enabled Him to endure it without turning to the false comforts of sin, and He was able to die as an innocent rendering the sacrifice fully effective. If one cannot accept the virgin conception, how can one accept the divinity of Christ? If one cannot accept the divinity of Christ, how can one accept the efficacy of Grace? Our faith lives or dies by the belief in the virgin conception.

Thanks for your honesty...I think it is true that some of us lose a child-like sense of wonder and awe, and perhaps this is what Jesus was talking about in part when he said we must come as children. It is hard, though, seeing the world and all the evil it is capable of, and knowing just how many ways we can feel disappointed, abandoned or ashamed, to remember that with God all things are possible and that God is working in all things for our good (Romans 8:28)

This is something that has always kind of bothered me. I think of how Sarah laughed (and then tried to deny it) in Genesis 18 when the Lord said she would have a baby by the following year. You would think that kind of scoffing and denial would earn her a little divine retribution--especially after the blatant lack of faith she exhibited in giving Hagar to Abraham when she got impatient for God's early promise to be fulfilled. How different is that from what happened to Zechariah? Actually, Zechariah had lived a righteous life with none of the acts of faithlessness recorded about Abraham and Sarah. Isn't he allowed ONE question? I am sure he may have been a little skeptical after years of the shame of barrenness, or maybe he was just hoping against hope. Maybe he was thinking of Elizabeth and wanted to make sure when he told her that he had something to back it up. He put God to the test--but so did Gideon in Judges 6 (who then was not satisfied with the results, and God humored him with a few more signs). I am not sure he even trusted his own eyes--perhaps he wondered if he had eaten some bad fish and was looking to substantiate his vision. I guess I identify strongly with Zechariah. I probably would have done the same thing. Mary's treatment seems more like what I would expect of God's merciful dealings with those God chooses for special work. She is basically a child with a child's sense of wonder and inquisitiveness. She is not questioning that God CAN give her a child, she just wants to know how. I am not sure it is really fair to compare Zechariah with Mary--sure, Zechariah should have "known better," but when compared to other Biblical figures who should have known better, God was a lot more patient with worse offenders than he was with Zechariah, with the exception, perhaps, of Uzzah in 2 Sam 6. As a few others have pointed out, though, the period of silence was probably for Zechariah's good. It is important for us to remember that even when our doubt gets us into trouble, God is still working for our good, even through the negative consequences of our faithlessness, and that our hardships instruct us and form us.

YES! I think of my own daughter, 16, who would be completely unprepared and devastated by the prospect of motherhood--natural or otherwise. I know things were different then, and Mary had been groomed her whole life for the role of wife and mother, but so be called to such a role as this must have been surreal...I wonder when (or if, even) she worried about what people would think when it became evident that she was pregnant, and how she told her parents, and what their reaction was. Did she ever think, "Why me?"

Thank you! I was trying so hard to remember what Yeshua meant. Some days I cannot remember the simplest things! -El

The angel Gabriel revealed to Mary that her Son by the Holy Spirit would be: Divine. The fulfillment of God's covenant with David to maintain a King of David's lineage over Israel. The One who was foreseen in the visions of prophets, such as Daniel, centuries before. That His would not be an earthly, limited, human reign, but one that would endure forever.

I have moved several times in my adult life & also find the church search a little daunting. The last time we moved, we sought God's direction for a good place to serve, as well as to worship--kind of an "ask not what the church can do for you; ask what you can do for the church" approach. We ended up in a denomination we would not have expected, and we have had some rough times, and have questioned our purpose there, but after 6 years, we have seen some of the fruits of our labors, and that has been encouraging. God has certainly used us where we are. Prayers for all who are looking to find a "good fit."

Hi, I am El (short for Ellen) in the Central United States. God has blessed me with the family I never thought I could possibly have--a good & kind husband of 21 years, and 2 wonderful children, 2 mis-matched dogs, and a lazy brown tabby cat. I am in ministry as a children's Christian Education director at our church of membership...(and the regular-attending children may be more advanced theologically than most of our adults--who are sadly barely beyond kindergarten to echo some other comments!!!!) I have taken several classes on-line, which included discussion forums, and have missed the sense of community that developed in that setting. It has been several years since the last one, and our church only occasionally has Bible study, so I have been longing for in-depth Bible study with others. Personal Bible study has its place, but Bible study takes on so much more dimension when undertaken as a group. I hope to find depth and challenge here. Grace and Peace to all fellow sojourners!