Patrick_Wong Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) 1 Cor 9:24 "Do you not know that in a race all the runners run......." As a sportman, I have to discipline myself to conform to the rules of the race. I cannot default the rules and do it my way. By the grace of God, I received forgiveness upon my salvation and acknowlegement of Christ as the saviour of my soul. In return, I renounced all that is contain in Gal 5:19ff, idolatry, hatred, discord etc. and consciously bind myself to live in accordance with the rules given. These rules does not ensure my salvation with is given by grace but it will ensure my existence in heavenly kingdom lifestyle here and now. Rules are created to ensure the well being of community and the individual as a whole. My obedience to the rules of God is not works in the finite sense. It is work (as a lifestyle) to ensure that I am able to live life to the fullest and leave behind a legacy for my children greater than all wealth imaginable. That legacy is as Paul put it in 1 Cor 9:26,27 "Therefore, I do not run like a man running aimlessly.............and make it a slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Min Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 When we are forgiven, we want to obey; our hearts are compelled to obey, even though we don't always do it. If a person's heart is not inclined toward obedience, he has not truly accepted forgiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thehammer44 Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 Being convinced of sin and unrighteousness, recognizing a divine creator, acknowledging the need to be reconciled to God. The Holy Spirit draws us toward God and enables us to see the need, yet we are created with Free will, thus the surrender and acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice becomes our first step of obedience to Him. To believe one without the other is to deny the need for Jesus to die for us. We could save ourselves by confessing and acknowleding God and promising to live right, etc. etc. Then is we failed or slipped up in some way we would not 'feel' saved or we would do the opposite and think we were so good, that pride would creep in and over take us. Obedience demonstrates our changed life. The 'new creation', which is in part our testimony. It shows our salvation is real. We obey because we desire to please Jesus. Recognizing how much He loves me causes me to want to please Him. I know I fall short each day, and yet I know Jesus is helping me to get up and keep trying. As we try to live for Him and become more like Him, others are drawn to Christ by our actions. Therefore it is imperitive that we are obedience. To claim to belong to Jesus and continue to behave as the world behave can cause others to stumble or be driven from the truth. Very dangerous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbuthpstr Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 2:1 Why do forgiveness and obedience come together as a package? When the first is received, we accept Christ not only as Savior...but LORD. This is often forgot these days. As Lord, He has ALL THE SAY SO. If He calls us or tells us that we are to do something, we should do it, because He has called us. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 seems to be pretty clear in this regard, "or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguilar-j Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 May the grace of God the Father be abundant in every one. I love receiving this questions and the interrelating in one theme, Here we are searching for an answer and there is no wrong answer per say we can all contribute in the growth of one another by sharing our innermost thoguths, they all seem to come from the heart About the first question.- THE SPRINKLING BY HIS BLOOD.- The ultimate act of obedience to the Father. Here we have it in a package. About the second part of the question.- To think we can have one without the other is deceiving, just like GOD works in misteryous ways, so does the angel of light works in deceiving ways and down plays one against the other therefore, GOD in his infinity wisdom and mercy offer salvation for us by grace and JESUS, obeyed his Father's Will till the end. The after though is: If JESUS obeyed all the way, can we by faith do the same? showing our faith through our works, saying is not me that does the work but CHRIST JESUS that lives in me and to him is the glory and the credit of everything. May GOD richly bless you. Your brother in CHRIST JESUS. Jesus Aguilar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaunita Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 We are forgiven and cleansed by the Blood of the sacrificial Lamb of God, Christ Jesus. As we learned here during our study on the Lamb of God, we are not under the law anymore, but under Grace. We are saved by faith, yes, but to continue to walk in His Grace we must be willing to obey His commands..To love the Lord God, with all our heart, mind etc. and to love our neighbor as ourseves. On this is the law based. How can we say we are forgiven, and not desire to obey the "Forgiver?" Salvation is a free gift...we don't earn it by good works; If we were able to 'earn' our salvation, we would be placing ourselves back under the law...which no man could keep. The law requires works....Grace requires a Saviour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelrose950 Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 we need to obey the Lord and then with the Lords help we can forgive others and obey his command to forgive ourselves and others and in return the Lord will give us grace and peace. We need to understand that we cannot make this happen,under our will ,but it is our gift from God--we cannot say we did it----the Lord has paved the way for us to good deeds that he has put in place for us. gby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 Obeying God means to have forgiveness, and to forgive means that you obey God and his word. Thus any deviation from this is deception, there is no compromise when it comes to God and his word. Good works is a act of love that we do. We are saved by Gods grace. We have to be careful as good works can lead to a person becoming boastful and full of pride. Gods grace included sending his son to die on the cross for our sins so that we have eternal life. (John 3:16) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbwalya Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 Forgiveness and Obedience are two faces of the same coin, just as faith and deeds. Faith preceed deeds or rather sprinkling preceeds obedience. Putting it in the words of James the brother of our Lord Jesus Christ I would say, "Show me how you have been forgivenen without obedience and I will show you that I have been forgiven by how I obey Him. He who is forgiven much, will love much, and this is love for God that we obey his commands (1 John 5:3). So it is deceiptive to think that one can have one without the other because sprinkling leads to obedience (righteouness) and righteouness to holiness leading to eternal life. The meaning of true faith requiring our obedience lies in the truth that the very essence of our faith in Christ is that we may be righteous (Romans 3:21). Thus, faith in Christ expresses itself through obedience to Him. This is how we know that we have faith in Him, if we obey Him. Goodworks are only a product of our obedience to Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcalbreath Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 Not much to add to the great answers already posted. God makes the offer (salvation and freedom from sin). But that promise is not ours until we believe and accept the offer. Merely assenting is not enough - we need to show our faith. James 2 tells us that the demons believe (and actually may have a much better sense of who God is and how powerful He is than we do). But their belief is not an active one that brings them to life in the Kingdom of Jesus. Don Calbreath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccs Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Because faith by itself is dead (James 2:17) If we have forgiveness and truly allow the Lord to work in us the Fruit of the Spirit will freely flow out from us. Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Because if you just accept forgiveness and aren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzzanne Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 Forgiveness is the "action" and obedience is the "result" of that "action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary Ellen McNeill Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 Forgiveness and obedience are tied together in the nature of God and the work of Christ. It was Christ's own obedience that gives us our forgiveness. It is only through this gift of forgiveness that we can be empowered to obey. We are deceived in trying to seperate the two (forgiveness and obedience), but we often think this way because the fruit ripens at different times in our lives. Perhaps we understand Christ's forgiveness first, then a long time passes before we come to an understanding of obedience. But I have often seen it in reverse: the person who is trying so hard to be obedient, hoping to "earn" Christ's forgiveness! We are truly saved by grace - no amount of obedience could save us, and even the power to obey is a gift of grace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betty Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) We must trust and obey. If we have found forgiveness in Jesus Christ, then obedience should be a natural result. So many people seem to enjoy the forgiveness from Christ, but they find it difficult to obey. They say they love God, but there is no evidence of that love. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." Through the power of the Holy Spirit living in us, we are able to show God's love to the world as we strive to walk in obedience to our loving God. It just is not possible to separate forgiveness from obedience and be in close fellowship with our Lord, because that's what He is all about. Christ is the supreme example of love and obedience, and we are to walk in His footsteps. We are not saved by works, but once we are saved by the grace of God, this should result in a desire to please God by doing works to glorify Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linda Stanley Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 First thing I want to say is.HELLO to all you new beautiful people Amen Why does forgiveness and obedience come together?Let me offer a child like example.If you go to your mother or dad with a bad report card from school,you, your dad and mom have a heart to heart talk.Mom and Dad forgive you "But" you tell them ,you will do better.So in return for their forgiveness ,you are obedient to them,bringing them a better report,the next time.So forgiveness and obedience comes together as a package,and I must add love in my package. We also have to change our lives and walk with Jesus being obedient to Gods word. Extra credit>We are saved through Gods unmerited grace,not by the result of any works or ability within ourselves.Our salvation is only something God can do.Salvation is a free gift,and through your acts or works it can not be received.We come to Jesus.We repent our sins and accept Jesus Christ into our lives,even as He has accepted us as we are, out of his love for us.A gift of salvation,through Gods grace."Grace ,"Grace",and more "Grace".Amen Blessings Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djmclaren Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) Salvation is not something we achieve by our own efforts. The best acts of righteousness of man are as filthy rags before God. Only one man was able to perfectly satisfy the righteous requirement of the Law, Jesus. Because He was able to enter the Holy of Holies by virtue of His own sinlessness, He was able to beome an atonement for our sin through His blood. He is the door. There is no other name given among men whereby we might be saved. In fact the Bible tells us that if we attempt to come in any other way we are a thief and a robber. Thus it is rebellion for me to throuw God's gift back at Him and go my own way. It is arrogance for me to walk in my own stringth and expect God's forgiveness. The sin of the devil was that he believed he could be as God and ascend to the heights. This is the same deception that he whispers to men. "You shall be as gods". It can be said in many forms but the same message is that we act in our own strength apart from God. John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 1 John 2:3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry ben Levi Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 Q2. Repentence for wrongdoing involves doing a turn-about. We change from moving away from God to moving toward God. In this sense, we are showing why forgiveness and obedience are an inseperable package. He offers forgiveness.. He calls... and when we turn toward Him, we are moving into a relationship of learning and obedience. "By his grace we are saved" .. Grace is Chen and Chesed ( favor and loyal love and kindness). We cannot earn salvation. God provides it! It is undeserved favor. James (1:25) encourages us to study Torah (Gen - Deut) for a reason. When we study, we learn more about how our God wants us to live, and why. The "works" that are involved do something special for us. The 'works' of living for God in fact bring us in line for the Blessings He tells us He has for us. ...and... If we are not obedient - well, we walk a path towards an uncomfortable future, and that's just not what God wants for us. We try to follow the guidelines for living He has set up for us in Torah for a reason. No, doing works doesn't save us. What it DOES do, however, is this: It matches the physical side of our nature with the spiritual. It brings us into a harmony of spirit and flesh. Our actions (works) match what is in the "... heart of flesh" God has given us. If we read in Ezek 36:26, we can understand that God has removed our "...Heart of stone" (we WERE dead) ... and has replaced it with a ... "heart of flesh"(we ARE alive! Yaaaa!). He gives us a new heart and spirit because He is God of the living, not of the dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda biloni Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 By faith, we know that we are forgiven by God because of the blood Jesus shed for us. It is our responsibility to see that this faith grows and becomes stronger. By being obediant to God, we are putting our faith in his promises. Tithing is a good example of this. The more we are obediant, the more we are faithful, and the stronger it becomes.I really saw the answer when I thught of it as a marriage proposal...it doesn't end when the proposal is accepted, along with the acceptance comes the responsibility. It would be really hard, if not impossible for a marriage to work, if no one accepted responsibility for the finances, maintenance of the home, or caring for the family. I'm not sure why it would be deceptive to think you could have one without the other, but I'm convinced after reading the book of Judges, that it wouldn't be a good idea and would cause God to let us suffer the consequences of our disobediance. I know I'd hate to read "once again Linda did evil in the eyes of God" chapter after chapter. Thank God for His mercy!!! We are saved by grace because God chose us...our part is to make the decision to be obediant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelOnLine Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? We all sin and come short of the glory of God. When we sin, we ask for and receive forgiveness. We are obedient when we turn from that sin and follow His commandments. Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? God forgives our sins when we ask him, but He expects us to turn from that sin and become obedient to Him. Forgiveness and obedience go hand in hand. Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) We were saved by Grace when God sent His Son to die on the cross. We must accept that Grace, by faith, before we can enter Heaven. Good works, in His name, will please God, but that alone will not get you into Heaven. Believe and have Faith in His word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dantanc Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 For God is Holy and if we are to be reconciled to God, the Father, we are to be transformed and sustained in holiness. Jesus by his supreme sacrifice makes us ready for it, by washing away our sins with His blood and obtaining our forgiveness. Holy Spirit hepls us to sustain and increase in that holiness, by prompting us to do the good works, which we do only if we become obedient to the teachings of Jesus Christ. However this whole process has the predestined blessing of the Father, the Grace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 For by the sprinkling of His blood we are forgiven. You can' t have one without the other this was the purpose. It is through Gods' grace we are saved, through Gods mercy, for His love for us, we were given, Jesus, whom, is our atonement, our sacrifice, and our forgiveness for sin. There is no type of work any man can do to save himself, it is only through Gods' grace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daron Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 Good works do not produce salvation. Salvation produces good works. Apples do not produce apple trees. Apple trees produce apples. "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit. Apart from me you can do nothing ... This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples" (John 15:5,8). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilimoma Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 If we are truly forgiven, we will want to serve in obedience. Our CONDITION (fruit) will show or prove our POSITION (salvation). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Barnett Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) Forgiveness is freely given to us by God. It is a gift from God, not a license to sin. We do not accept forgiveness with the thought that "we're good for another twenty thousand, let's go and sin some more, until next time!" We may only accept forgiveness with true sorrow in our hearts for our transgressions and with true intent to sin no more. When we accept God's forgiveness, we also assume the responsibility of trying to live up to His mandate which is one of obedience as well as love. We are surely saved by Grace, God's Grace as He sent Jesus to die for our sins. Good works, by themselves will not get us into Heaven, only faith in Christ will do that. Good works are a result of our trying to live in Christ, as we accept Him into our lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gail B. Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 Forgiveness of God (sprinkling) cleanses us from our sin and makes us acceptable to a holy God, but obedience keeps us from polluting what Christ has made clean. You cannot have one without the other because you render of no effect the cleansing blood of Jesus by polluting yourself if you are not obedient to God's word. Let me add here that I think when we first are called and saved by God, we are obedient because of thankfulness because of what Jesus has done for us. In time as we learn to know God we develop love for him which causes obedience to his word. And we are become more thankful. Obedience is a product of faith. God did the calling, saving and sanctifying while we did not even know him. The works we do are through the grace he gives and the works he does in and through us. I believe the obedience to walk in his ways is also given to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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