mollymadhat Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) Forgiveness loses it's meaning and it becomes pointless without obedience. Just think of it in the terms of a Parent and child. If your child is determined to continue running into the street even after you have forgiven him for running before doesn't your forgiveness of his rebellion lose it's meaning? And as his rebellion strenghtens each time he runs into the street - then soon he doesn't even want forgiveness. That there is our danger - when we don't obey. And now this extra credit question: Boy this is a hard one. First of all we must just establish what the facts are. We are saved only by Christ and His sacrifice. Because none of us COULD make it to heaven on our own merits. This has to be a gift (or grace) because we CAN'T do it on our own. With this FACT firmly in place, when we disobey and rebel it destroys our trust and belief in our God. This is just what happens, it's the natural result of our disobedience. And here I mean willful disobedience. To have eternal life we must have this precious FAITH((see John 3:16) in our God and it is very dangerous then to disobey because it destroys our faith, which then destroys our salvation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacey Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 It is an interactive process. If we are chosen through the sanctifying work of the spirit there is an action in progress. We are being transformed, and that sanctifying action takes place in the struggle with obediance. We can not be totally obediant, but if we are washed in the blood of Christ we can fail, regroup, and call upon the Holy Spirit to accomplish in us what we can't by ourself. There is no question in my mind that this is the process that leads to new spiritual life. God, the author of life, did the choosing when he created the first humans to be in relationship with God. God sustains us through the sanctifying work of the spirit, and then sealed the deal by offering up his only Son so that nothing can separate us from the love of God. There is no question in my mind that forgiveness without repentance and obedience leads to a spiritual death. Without my response this is "cheap grace." Grace without growth. Grace without change. In the words of Leonard Sweet, "a body that does not change is adead body." And the choice is mine to make. There is a question in my mind as to whether or not obedience is required for the ultimate gift of salvation. I know Christians who are so distressed over the status of their salvation that they focus on this instead of trusting in Christ's sacrifice. The are not able to truly move beyond the doubt into the freedom Christ bought for us. According to the question posed, I am deceiving myself to say there can actually be one without the other. But this to me is the true faith that sets me free. My salvation is secure, I need not worry. I am free to move beyond this question. The stone has been rolled away once and for all- how can I keep from singing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soilderchild Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 People tend to think if I can just be forgiven for the wrong things I do or have done, everything is find and God is please. Sure we are sinners saved by grace, but I remember what Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." This proves our love for Jesus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pappahuey Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Because once we're obedient to GOD we can then be forgiven. We have fallen into thinking it is our right to choose what we want to follow. GOD shows us the right way to follow but leaves it up to us to follow up. Extra credit... Because GOD knows our hearts, we can't fake that, but if we are not careful, we start to think that our works please GOD and that is enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moira Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 When the Israelites were in Egypt under the ownership of slavery, God came to their rescue giving Moses instructions to "sprinkle blood on the doorposts and lintels and to stay inside". The angel of death wiped out the firstborn of all those whose homes did not have the covering of blood. None of the Israelites' firstborn died that night because they obeyed God's instructions. Consequently they were safely led out of Egypt and eventually into "the land flowing with milk and honey". The sacrificial lamb's blood cleanses and forgives us in order that we can be free from the burden of sin and its consequences and obedience to God's voice and His Word keeps us on the right path. We are responsible for our own attentiveness and actions and if we think that we can have the blood but not have to obey the Word, we need to reread Exodus and the journey through the wilderness where through the disobedience of the Israelites, they had to wander much longer and on a journey that God did not intend them to endure. So easy for someone to do the hard bit for us, but in this affair we must pull our weight as well if we want to experience a love affair with God. Our faith in a loving, living God who is our Master, Redeemer, Provider, Creator, Father assures us that He and He alone knows what is best for us and He has a purpose for each one of us. "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.I.C Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 We have to realize that we are all sinners. Without forgiveness, God can't even bare to look at us. As well, if we are not obeying God that too is considered a sin. Hence, this is the reason why it is deceptive to think you can have forgiveness without obediance. First of all, we can say that we are saved by grace rather than by works because we realize that there is nothing we can do to obtain salvation except by believing that Jesus' death on the cross was to pay the ultimate price for our sins. Jesus did the work for us. If this weren't true what then would be the point of Jesus dying on the cross. Why would God send His, one and only Son to beaten and tortured by us humans. There would be no purpose for the crucifixion to ever have taken place. Secondly, we can never do enough work to feel like God is completely satisfied with us. "Works" leaves us tired and burnt out. But salvation through grace, it just lifts that burden up off of our shoulders. And what we do, we now do for God, not for ourselves, not to work our way to heaven. This is what leaves us fulfilled and completely satisified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjwill Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 I enjoyed reading through the posts not that I read all of them but I did read several and each one spoke to me greatly. As a youth pastor I some times (less now then early on in the ministry) do things with the attitude, "I have to" instead of "I want to". I think that reflects this idea, We are saved by grace not by works! There is nothing "I have to do" to be saved out side of receiving Jesus, it is at this point that I should have the desire, "I want to!" And if I have true faith, this will be clearly evident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve.c Posted May 6, 2006 Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) The process of conversion, turning towards God, is first belief, that is to have faith, then confession and then repentance. If we believe in Jesus and his mediation, it must follow that we follow His teaching. Otherwise there can be no real conversion, no real belief or faith and no entry into the Kingdom of God. As disciples we must follow Him; that is do as He tell us. We cannot remain in the Kingdom of God unless we do. We do not deserve to be forgiven of our sins, it is by God's grace only. It is His great loving gift to us through His Son's atoning sacrifice. But how can we believe and not put that belief into action? Actions demonstrate our real belief, they prove them to be genuine and heart felt. "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says...But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he heard, but doing it - he will be blessed in what he does." James 1:22,25. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabatha Posted May 4, 2008 Report Share Posted May 4, 2008 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) UNTO OBEDIENCE AND SPRINKLING OF THE BLOOD OF jESUS cHRIST. By "obedience" is meant either the obedience of elect men of Christ, which lies in obeying the truth of the Gospel, called the obedience of faith; and so is the same with the "belief of truth",which goes along in election with the sanctification of the Spirit, in ( 2 Thessalonians 2: 13) and in submission to Gospel ordinances, and doing all good work in the name of ,Faith , and strength of Christ; and which also are fruits and effects, and so not causes divine perdestination; see ( Ephesians 2: 8-10) and also follow upon the sanctification of the Spirit; or else the obedience of Christ is intended; which lay in His performing the precepts of the law, and bearing the penalty of it, death; and by which the chosen seed are justified, or made righteous in the sight of God. and have a title to eternal life and Glory, and are safe from the wrath to come; and to the enjoyment of this grace, They are chosen of God the Father; and between these two, predestination and justification, there ia a close and inseperable connection; so that they that are interested in the one, or the other;see ( Romans 8:30), the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ;does not denote a small quantity of it, for it was shed and poured out in great abundance; but it is said in allusion to the sprinkling of the blood of the passover Lamb ( Exodus 12: 22,23 ) ) or to the sprinkling of the blood on the book of the covenant, and on the people at Mount Sinai, The application of the blood of Christ to the Heart of God, by the Spirit of God, for cleansing, pardon and justification, is meant, which affords true, solid conscience peace and joy now, all which are secured by grace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mary1 Posted May 12, 2008 Report Share Posted May 12, 2008 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) Because faith is a journey of change we need to humbly come and learn to do things God's way and not our own way. We need to ask for forgivness for our sins accepting God's provision for that sin through the Cross then changing our attitude and actions to grow up in God. To try to have forgiveness without giving obedience to God's ways is to be less than God intended. We cannot have all of God on our terms. Salvation is always a gift of God, it is His work of Grace in us. Our action in response to this is to trust and obey His leading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca M Posted May 14, 2008 Report Share Posted May 14, 2008 I agree with many of you, that when we fall in love with God, we want to obey. And obedience gives us a freedom that can only be experienced when we discipline ourselves in Christ. If we have been privy to increased wisdom of the ways of God, then we are more responsible to be obedient based on that level of knowledge. Grace is always present, but there are higher expectations that come with our growth as Christians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Weir Posted May 21, 2008 Report Share Posted May 21, 2008 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) http://www.joyfulheart.com/forums/index.ph...;f=33&t=147 'Sprinkling', - forgiveness and repentance, are not enough for our Salvation. We need to also be obedient. ' Faith without works......'. Faith alone in our world today would not result in any fruits that we are asked to bear. We need to put our faith into action. Grace is God's free gift to us. His grace alone allows us to put our faith into action. This grace is necessary first for us to have the faith and obedience to put our belief system into action - thus we are saved by grace rather than works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorianne Posted May 26, 2008 Report Share Posted May 26, 2008 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) Forgiveness and obedience come together as a package because God will alway forgive us when we ask, but unless we are repentent and obedient to turn away from the issue we are asking forgiveness of we will be in a cycle of repeating this issue over and over again. Grace is given when we don't deserve it but we are not to abuse it. When we are obedient it puts action behind our faith and others can see Christ working in us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissioned Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package because for one to receive forgiveness they must walk in obedience. Obedience to the Word of God and belief in the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? It is deceptive to think you can have one without the other because in order to have forgiveness you must first obey the command and follow the instructions required to receive forgiveness. Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) We can say that we are saved by grace rather than works because it is God that does the choosing, we have only to obey. There is nothing we can do to save ourselves it is purely by grace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherie Posted June 4, 2008 Report Share Posted June 4, 2008 When we realize that through Christs blood we have been forgiven - and when we repent and seek God - the Holy Spirit guides us - speaks to us and we desire to be obedient even though we all stumble - me especially Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennywren Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10[/size] We need to be obedient to God to receive His forgiveness. By forgiving others, God will forgive us. When we follow God's commandments and turn away from sin we are being obedient. We will be deceiving ourselves if we we believe that we can have one without the other. If we believe in Jesus then we will have true faith and be obedient. Extra credit: God saved us by Grace when He sent Jesus to die on the Cross for our sins. We cannot earn Grace by doing good works, it is a gift from God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrstoler Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) Some people that call themselves Christians are not following Christ Jesus, and people who are seeking Christ or new to the faith, and also unbelievers, are watching them be disobedient to the Word of God. This put a bad light on the message that true followers of Christ are trying to teach those who seek the knowledge of the Word of God. When Jesus Christ forgives us of our sin as He did the woman who was accused of adultery, He tells us to, "Go and sin no more!" Who are we to think that we can have the joy of forgiveness and not obey the one who forgave us. He paid for our lives with His. Faith is not just words that comes from our mouths. It is also in our actions. How can we tell people we have the faith when people can see that our actions clearly tell a total different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-walk Posted July 5, 2008 Report Share Posted July 5, 2008 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) " by their fruits you shall know them" (Matthew 7:20) Yahweh speaks the WORD. the word becomes real through yahshuah the messiah in us by sprinkling. this manifest in us by the holy spirit. hence obedience is the fruit of the indwelling of the holy spirit in us. we all have a role to play, whereas Yahweh does the choosing, which is 99% His part, choice is left for you and i. rebelling of course means perceiving only the things of this homeland. and yet by abiding,one can have a far greater opportunity cost than rebelling. "for Yahweh so loved the world" we did not not love HIM but He loved us. Yahweh is love and there is no way we can assume that we loved Him with our bankrupt hearts that He gave HIS begotten son for our acts of love for Him. henceforth it is by the grace and not works. remember love is the greatest of any works on planet earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurf1948 Posted August 5, 2008 Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 Only by obedience to Jesus and his forgiveness of our sin can we have true salvation. This brings a personal relationship with God. You need all parts to make up a whole. Its like a jigsaw puzzle without all the little pieces it just wont make any sense. Extra credit Question: Grace is freely given and obedience is what we give back out of love for what Jesus did for us.Obedience isn't works we do but love for the Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie1Rose Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) In being forgiven I am saved from hell and eternal separation from God. Obedience is saying thank you for it and ensuring I stay close to Jesus. It also means I can do the good works Jesus has got for me to do. Without obedience I can forget my forgiveness and it becomes meaningless. I am saved by grace, by God choosing me to be His child. If I was saved by works, it would be nothing to do with God and the Cross would be meaningless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie1Rose Posted August 10, 2008 Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) I am saved to do the good works which Christ has for me to do. Without obedience I cannot grow in Christlikeness nor can I be of service to Christ. Faith without obedience will result in a lack of salt and light to a dying world. I am saved by grace. I don't deserve forgiveness nor my inheritance with God. IT IS A FREE GIFT. However once I am saved I am called to serve. And that entails obedience, faith and good works Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God's child Posted September 20, 2008 Report Share Posted September 20, 2008 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) Once we are born again it is God's desire for us to follow Him in obedience to His Word and that should be a new believers desire as well. God intends that we as new Christians should grow in the knowledge of who He is and how He desires to be in every aspect of our lives, directing and guiding us according to His will.-God's word tells us that faith without works is dead. He also says the opposite is true. Salvation is a gift that we cannot receive by our works. but only by the grace of God and it is free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karey Posted September 21, 2008 Report Share Posted September 21, 2008 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) Forgiveness and obedience come together as a package, because when u r forgiven u r made pure and clean, and with obedience, as obeying God, we r to be like God, pure and clean, and act in accordance with God's ways. To live life righteously, and to be like Jesus Christ in all of our thoughts, actions, and our words. It can be deceptive because one can think that he/ she is forgiven, he/she can think that okay i am forgiven, and they forget the part that we have to live our lives being godly. obeying God, and living our lives as God wants us to live them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulcrf Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 Q2. (1:2) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) Why do forgiveness (sprinkling) and obedience come together as a package? Answer: "Not everyone who keeps saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will get into the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven. Mat 7:21. Forgiveness is the fruit of obedience. Why is it deceptive to think you can have one without the other? Answer: It is deceptive because most of us focus only on the promise of God which is forgiveness and tend to disregard the preceding conditions which is obedience to his commands. Extra credit: If true faith requires obedience, how can we say that we are saved by grace rather than works? (Ephesians 2:8-10) Answer: True faith is manifested by submission to God's authority. Grace comes through faith. It is freely given to those who believe. No works will merit God's abundant grace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeWaine Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 The sprinkling of Christ's blood was foreshadowed in the Aaronic priesthood by the sprinkling of the blood of sacrifices around the altar. In Ezekiel 36:25 God promised to sprinkle clean water (referring to bodily fluid, not drinking water. See Strong's Hebrew Dictionary.) on Israel to bring them into obedience. God promises to sprinkle many nations (Isaiah 52:15) to compel obedience. Hebrews 10:22 and 12:24 establishes the sprinkling of Christ's blood as the foundation of the new covenant. When we accept the saving grace of Christ's sacrifice, we instantly take his yoke upon us (Matt. 11:29). A yoke is the symbol of servitude, and the hallmark of servitude is obedience. Obedience always goes hand in hand with the new birth. We are indeed saved by grace and not works. God's grace gives us the ability and the desire to be obedient to His Word. Obedience is not a matter of works for the true Chrisitan, but an act of praise and thanksgiving. Disobedience does not mean that we can lose our salvation. Consider Eph 1:13 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise". No man breaks God's seal. Romans 11:29 tells us that 'the gifts and callings of God are irrevokable' (NKJV). Once we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, can we lose that indwelling? Acts 5:32, "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." A first look would tell us that we could, indeed lose that indwelling. However, the word "obey" (peitharchousin) used here means submitting to an authority or a ruler. Therefore it has the meaning of recognizing the person and authority of Christ and His finished work on the cross. The word obey as used here has no reference to moral commands or to a standard of life but only that we believe in Christ, submitting to His authority. That is the essence of obedience - being submitted to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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