JesusWalk Bible Study Forum: Q3. Prayer and Determinism - JesusWalk Bible Study Forum

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

My answer to question #2 is also my answer to this question.
It is all about our training.
The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much"
Does effectual fervent prayer availeth much to God or to us?
I think it trains us to be more like Christ.

If we feel that everything is predetermined, we won't pray as hard.

I think it's plain sill to think that our prayers make no difference. We're told repeatedly through the Bible to pray.

God would not tell us to pray, if it made no difference.

[QUOTE]How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayer make no difference to God's response?


By adopting the attitude "Que sera, sera, what will be, will be." With this attitude you can't pray a gutsy prayer like Moses.

A passive belief.

The Lord Jesus told us to pray in his name and what we ask for will come pass.

I am one that know that today's prayers are all answered but in his own time. In Gods perfect timing.

I don’t know how to fully reconcile predestination and foreknowledge and human free will. The Scriptures make it clear that in all things, God has a will and a plan to accomplish it. It is also clear that He already knows the outcome of all things. And yet, within those parameters, He has given us the free will to choose whether or not to cooperate with His will. Only God could design such a thing – and make it work!

I love Pastor Ralph’s challenge that even though we don’t understand all of this, we must act as if everything is NOT predetermined. Otherwise, it seems to me that prayer would truly just be a rather weak, empty, passionless exercise. If Moses’ example of confident, bold, powerful prayer was “gutsy”, then what is described in the question would perhaps be “gut-less” prayer. There would be no point to intercession, to which we’re clearly called in Scripture.

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

Determinism is placeing your own will and interest above that of the Father. Predestination means that we are all partakers of the inheritance if we meet the criteria required of salvation. Moses held God to his word because he knew the Word of God. He was in personal relationship with the Lord and he knew his place in both the will of God and within his place among the people as their leader. God imparted this to Moses through divine authority - and this gave Moses the authority to pray in such a way. He knew the will and intent of the Father, which was also his will - because he was in total surrender to the Lord.

Jesus has taught us to pray to "Our Father......", including, among other things our requests . He demonstratd many times in His own relatinship with God that He could ask and receive anything, including deliverance from the terrible death that He had come to undergo. He said that God would send legions of angels if He asked for it, and indeed they did come to minister to Him in the garden of Gethsemane. I presume here that He was not lying! In other words His prayers did receive their needed response from His Father. We too, by grace, are able to change the path of things with our prayers to God. Yes, there will be a wonderful Christian family, raptured or raised from the dead, because this is what God has ordained from the beginning. But I can pray for people, that they should be included in this family, and know that Father hears and honours my prayers that accord with His will that "not one should perish". Obviously there are those who will perish, and whose fate is already sealed in that manner, even though it was not God's will. Yet His overall will to have a family in Heaven will be achieved, and there is no changing that.

Therefore a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response is a belief in a lie. It is simply not the Truth. It is inconsistent with scripture that the effective fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. The evidence is there many times over that God hears and answers prayers, eg when Peter was prayed out of prison.

Afterthought:
Perhaps God has made the world with a predetermined outcome, but He has also made us in His own image, so that we, like Him, have some individual and personal part in the determination of that ourcome. Our God is the most amazing! Please, somebody, comment on this thought! I'll look again at this forum tomorrow to see your comment.

pps:
God can use gutsy people, gutsy pray-ers.

If all was predestined prayer would be limited to praise and worship.

The effectual ferverent prayer availeth much.

Gutsy prayer can change the heart of God.God's will willbe done and we cannot change that .But we can influence the way it is actioned when it is passionatley presented to him with all prayer and supplication,interceding on behalf of those concerned.

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?


We are humans, limited in our understanding of the scriptures and the mind of God. In that position, we are not in a position to argue for or against, predestination, determinism, foreknowledge, freewill etc. But we should be concerned about the present position we are in. We should concern ourselves on the present object of our focus. If we are supposed to pray, let us pray fervently, forgetting about the attributes of the Lord God and forgetting about all the mind boggling abstract ideas. If we follow one school of thought, we will be distracted and our prayers will turn out to be spineless, abstract words instead of the kind of gutsy prayer Moses did.

If we believe that our prayers make no difference to God's response, then we are believing that God who has predetermined the actions of all, will do them whatsoever be the prayers we offer. We are resigned to God's chess game. The Hindus call it the 'Karma' or one's fate. Fortunately, we have a God who listens to His childrens' prayers and answers them, according to His promises made in the scriptures.

How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?


1st even if GOD knows the end we don't. without any of our actions, we're showing GOD that we don't care what happens. we have a choice and prayer is 1 of them. it's our way of asking for his help. it also acknowledges that we know we need his him. prayer shows GOD that we believe in him and that we care.

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?
If we believe that everything is pre-determined, then we have no right--or power--to pray that God change something, whether it is for saving a life, or healing, or turning danger away. This understanding is not Biblical. God in Jesus told us to pray for our needs. If God has already decided what He will do, then it is useless to pray for Him to do otherwise, no matter how "gutsy"!
We know of many times--in the Bible as well as in daily life--when prayers were answered, and very definitely so! If we believe that prayer makes no difference in God's response, I'd call making such a prayer an act of stupidity. If it would do nothing, He would not have told us to pray.
Praise the Lord! we know that He loves us and hears us! And that presupposes that He wants our prayers and they will make a difference!

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed?

If we believe that all things that are in the heart of God are set in stone the way he did the 10 commandments then we know that the prayers of Moses would not have made a difference. God is all knowing we understand that from 1John 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 1John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God. 1John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. His word is life and we see that we can talk to the Father by praying and he will do intercession for us. He would not let us pray and just toss it out he knows our hearts and our minds and he will answer our prayers when we ask in faith believing.

What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?
That is a prayer that is calling Jesus, as well as God the Father, a liar. They said they hear our prayers and that they will answer them. So if you do not believe that they why pray. If we are but puppets here on this earth we would have no free will and Eve would not have listen to the servant. God has angels already that worship him day and night he gave us free will to have humans to live love and rejoice in him because of who he is not because that is all we can do. Even the angels fell so they had free will also things do change because of prayer. If not why would we bother to pray!

Israel had tempted God by putting their belief in a golden calf and paying homage to it.
God’s irritation at sin can’t be understood apart from his holiness, He oppose sin and human degradation, our sin offended God’s very nature.
How can He not want to destroy Israel, He would have been justified in doing so, they had completely rebelled against him.

We think that if God predestined it that it is set in stone and over with. Our prayers do make a difference to God. And people that do are praying whimpy prayers!!

Lesson 2 Q 3
How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed?

If we believe that God predestined everything then we would not believe that there is power in prayer, therefore making us pray wimpy prayers. If we have a wrong undrestanding of determinism and predestination then we believe that we cannot change God's mind and action, we would not have any bold prayers like Moses.

What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

I would call our prayers passive and and unbelieving.

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of prayer that Moses prayed?

First, I believe that God does not will sinful actions, but He does allow them to happen. Up to this point, I have used a passive "thy will be done". My prayers were not gutsy. If we don't understand determinism and predestination (to some point at least) we will be passive in prayer.
As a five year old Christian, I can see that I have a "lotta learnin" to do.

What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

I call it unbelief in the ONE TRUE GOD. If our prayers can't make a difference, we may as well not bother. We are wasting our time, and God is not listening anyway.

Apologies to anyone who might take offense to my remarks, especially because you may not understand them the way I mean them. However, this is a forum for each one to say what they think, is it not?

A wrong understanding would cause us to believe it didn't matter what we prayed....God has predetermined everything, so why bother? If you believe your prayers make no difference, it's predestination. I also call it wrong. The Bible records many prayers that "changed" God's mind.

This is a real tough one for me to grasp. God told us to pray and left us with some help on how to. I have to agree that prayer makes us more Christ like.

I don't begin to comprehend it all. The best I could explain to my kids was: our understanding of the things of God was like looking at a photograph, 2 demensional. God is 3 demensional or more.

I have rough thoughts in my mind but they are not yet clear, will take more time meditating on God's word.

I don't believe that God changes his mind. To me for God to change his mind would be to say "mistake" . God doesn't make mistakes. God is the same today as he was yesterday. We worship exactly the same God as Moses did, for there is only one God.

How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

While I believe that God already knows everything, I also believe He does not expect us to just walk around in a "Ho Hum" attitude. We have been sent to tell the world about God. If we are not excited about him and don't seek his help, his will, how can we get others turned onto God. I think that God waits for our honest and earnest prayers before we see him act so that we are showing him our commitment to Him and his will. If we believe our prayers make no difference - then why do we even bother?