Q3. Prayer and Determinism

[DEIRDRE INAMDAR]

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

I think it is important for us to know that we are Kingdom people and not puppets.We have a relationship with the God of the universe,and He trusts us with the Gospel and with the spreading of His Kingdom,He listens to us He desires that we stand in the gap.We see it throughout the Scriptures from Genesis onwards.We need to pray gusty prayers and wrestle with God in prayer to see His Kingdom come and His will be done.

Insipid,limp what else! I beliebe that God hears us and responds to our prayers,so lets not give up.Instead let us thank and praise God for having such a rich relationship with us.

[Donna5]

If we were to believe in predestination, then what would be the point of praying at all? Rather than if we believe that what we feel or think matters to our loving God. I believe that God wants to hear from us weather we are happy angry or sad. He already knows what is in our hearts anyway. A real relationship is built upon real feelings. I have prayed to God with angry feeling for some of the things that have gone on in my life and I have had people tell me that I shouldn't do that. Although I feel we should give thanks in ALL situations, I believe that honesty is key to any relationship. God has then been able to answer me when I have been confused, hurt or angry as shown me the purpose of the situation and has blessed me greatly through this. I believe that through my prayers my life has been changed as well as many lives around me. Praise God for he is loving and merciful.

[student]

A wrong understanding of determinism and predestination will cause to us to say what is the use and pray everything, thy will be done. Isaiah 43:26 says for us to put God in remememberance, state your case. Let us contend together

a false belief, deterministic, that God has already made up His mind. If that is so why does He call for intercessors?

[othatdavid]

#1- I think it would create an atmosphere of apathy/indifference. Why pray if all is settled?

#2 Meaningless, lacking purpose

Thank you to those that reminded me that God asks us to pray throughout the Scriptures. An obvious fact that escaped me but when I dwell on this.....it really impacts the way I think about prayer. Of course He wouldn't have commanded us to do it if there were no purpose in it.

I really appreciate the thoughts/insights of all who post here. It really enriches the study to "hear" others minds on these important matters. My prayer life has been an area of deep concern to me. This study is helping me to be more committed to prayer.

[ajtmaestro71]

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

Not understanding determinism and predestination can cause one to pray defeatist, ineffective prayers. I believe that we get exactly what we expect when we pray. If we expect nothing, we get nothing. If we expect great things, we get great things. I call a belief that a prayer makes no difference to God's response WEAK!

[tess lopido]

What I learned from this lesson is that God is a merciful God and through fervent prayers He will always answer His children. I also believe that our God wants only good things for His children and each time He answers prayers, it is for us, children to recognize how great and good our God is and that we may be able to give glory to Him by witnessing to others His great love for us.

[sheenabrown]

. What aspects of Moses' prayer of intercession should we emulate in our own prayers? Upon what logical grounds does Moses offer this bold appeal to God? What do you think it means to "pray the promises of God"? How does knowing the Bible help you get your prayers answered? How does this help our prayers be within God's will?

1. We should have compassion for those we intercede for.

2. If God gives in to His anger it would diminish Him in the eyes of His people. Possibly break His promises to them.

3. Knowing the Bible helps us to know God's will for our life. Our prayers are then prayed with a proper direction

[linda bass]

How can a wrong understanding of determination and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed?

It can cause us to pray weak, meaningless, apathetic prayers.

If we don't believe in the power of prayer, we become wimpy prayers.

I know Christians who think it's a waste of time to pray for America, because according to them, God has already determined to judge this nation and pour out His wrath upon her because of her sins.

However, I believe if those of us who our intercessors will continually pray for our nation and our government, it is possible that God will show mercy and give America a chance to repent and turn from sin.

What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

I call it a cop-out.

[dantanc]

We see in the bible many instances where God has changed his mind, at the urging of fervent and faithfilled prayers from his servants. Eventhough these servants believed God to do HIS will, still they appealed to him urging him to cosider their request to have pity on the people he loved. I think God expects us be instruments to cause changes in his judgemens, appealing to his mercy, love and kindness. I believe that God hears even the prayers of a sinner with complete repenteance.

[mjl4given2]

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

I feel that if we feel everything is determinism and predestination we won't pray with boldness. We won't set an appeal to God, we just go with things. I don't think God wants me to just go with the flow. He wants me to be bold, strong, and tell him what i want and how i would like things to come to pass. If i am right with God he will give me all my hearts desires. I surely hope that my prayers make a difference to God, other wise why do I pray or then how come we interced for others? Doesn't that make a difference. I know that i am here because of the prayers from family, friends, and my pastor inteceding for me when i was in the darkness.

[charlesolu]

Awrong understanding of determinism and predestination will prevent us from praying Moses kind of prayer. When a person does not know his predistination or purpose in life, he becomes less agitative or determined to achieve a particular goal. To such a person any destination is the right destination; any road is the right road. When we know our purpose and plan of God for us, we're able to pray and remind God concerning it, and cry essetially when things are not going the right way. Moses understood what God's promises were concerning His people, he stood on these to plead his case for God's mercy on behalf of the people.

I do not subscribe to the belief that our prayers doesn't make any difference with God. God is compasionate and mercififul, even though He may have proposed to punish us for our sin, when we turn from sin and genuinely repent of evil doing, God forgives us and give us a new lease of life. Because God created us, He knows our frailties or weakness and He made provision for our forgivess, when we turn back to Him.

[Dolly]

If we think that God is going to do it his way anyway... then we will merely do a dutiful prayer and believe God will do what is right no matter.

God said to pray with no doubts, he said to come boldly to the throne and make your requests. He said what ever you ask in his name will be done. He said he wants us to intercess for people, otherwise they will be lost forever.

If our prayers make no difference to God's response, why would he tell us to pray, why would he want us to intercede for others. Why would he give us model prayers. Why would he say prayer is a two way conversation with God?

[Mayjoy]

Luke 11:9 - And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. - the response of God is dependent on how we do our part and if we are living our lives in God's direction, living a holy lives, which God wants us to be -, and we are submitting ourselves to Him, we are certainly sure that God will hear our prayers - it is also written in James 5:16 The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

[masika]

Wrong understanding of determinism and predestnation keeps us from the kind 0f gutsy prayer that Moses prayed in that , one may belief that everything ultimately depends upon God.

some beliaf that God has foreordained all thing especialy that God has elected certain soul to eternal salvation.

[BigFish]

Our whole life story is completly planned out like a road map. I mean EVERYTHING is planned. It only depends on where you will do to make this life happen. It depends on what you pray. If depends on what you want. It all depends on what you do. God only gave you a map. You will have to find your way but God wil always be in the passenger seat, guiding you every step of the way. It only happens if your a rightousness though...

[JustJeff]

When we assume anything at all we are destined for trouble. If we dare assume that our course is laid out for us, that we are guaranteed our journey to heaven we may well end up in hell. This can lead to a prayer life, if any at all, that is meek and effortless. We should not forget that the Lord specifically mentions that there are two roads on this walk, one wide, one narrow. Obviously He gives us a choice and knows the outcome of that choice. We have been given a free will, as were the Hebrew children. Most chose the wide road. Do we think that they were predestined to make that choice? Probably so, as God knows our hearts but, they did have a choice. If we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, as we are taught to do, then any thought of a predestined journey should go down the tubes and afford us a real prayer life.

I call a prayer life that is absent of the belief that we can change God's response fruitless. Our prayers should be designed to move our Father in some manner for someone or something. He needs us to humble ourselves to Him, not in apathetic indifference, but in genuine love and concern. Only He knows how many prayers for an unsaved soul moved Him to send the right person at the right time. We have to always remember, He does not hear sinners and intercessary prayer is instrumental for the salvation of the lost. God forbid that we don't move Him!

[His Kid]

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

Why bother praying or doing anything if it's already determined what is going to happen? I do believe in predestination but I believe we have an active role to play. God knows the end from the beginning...what will happen...how we will respond...what our choices will be. God wants children not robots. He wants us to seek Him, ask of Him.

A belief that our prayers make no difference....ignorant. If they didn't, why did Jesus bother with such fervent prayer?

[april]

Jesus has taught us to pray to "Our Father......", including, among other things our requests . He demonstratd many times in His own relatinship with God that He could ask and receive anything, including deliverance from the terrible death that He had come to undergo. He said that God would send legions of angels if He asked for it, and indeed they did come to minister to Him in the garden of Gethsemane. I presume here that He was not lying! In other words His prayers did receive their needed response from His Father. We too, by grace, are able to change the path of things with our prayers to God. Yes, there will be a wonderful Christian family, raptured or raised from the dead, because this is what God has ordained from the beginning. But I can pray for people, that they should be included in this family, and know that Father hears and honours my prayers that accord with His will that "not one should perish". Obviously there are those who will perish, and whose fate is already sealed in that manner, even though it was not God's will. Yet His overall will to have a family in Heaven will be achieved, and there is no changing that.

Therefore a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response is a belief in a lie. It is simply not the Truth. It is inconsistent with scripture that the effective fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. The evidence is there many times over that God hears and answers prayers, eg when Peter was prayed out of prison.

Afterthought:

Perhaps God has made the world with a predetermined outcome, but He has also made us in His own image, so that we, like Him, have some individual and personal part in the determination of that ourcome. Our God is the most amazing! Please, somebody, comment on this thought! I'll look again at this forum tomorrow to see your comment.

pps:

God can use gutsy people, gutsy pray-ers.

Yes I agree our God is most amazing! We have free will but because God is God and there is no other like Him We can trust Him. It not up to us to figure out how he does it. He just does it He's God and we are not.

God bless you

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

A wrong understanding of predestination cause people not to have the desire to pray because why should we pray if everything is unchangeable why bother to pray prayer of faith like Heb 4 :16 says Let us come boldly I call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response A bold face lie. [/color]ce

[jdjohnson_74]

- How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed?

A wrong understand of predestination will be basically saying "I won't take any action to affect the outcome of what God wants to be done." That isn't what God wants us to be doing. He wants us to be able to affect the lives of our friends and family in a positive way. To be able to show the love of Christ, we must be able to express that love. And to do that, we must be able to come to our Father and plead with Him to change our friends and families hearts, to soften them to God's will.

- What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

I would call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response a lack of faith. Jesus, Himself, told the Roman soldier that "As you have believed, it will be done for you." If a person doesn't believe that their prayers will be answered, then they won't be.

[anthony s. rapaglia]

God gave us a choice of free will.God himself, or Satan.We believed that everything,including every human act is caused by something and that there is no real free will. (WRONG).We were given that free will to obey or disobey. What we have to remember,that God decided at the beginning of time who would go to Heaven after death and who would not.

Either we have the Spirit of God living in us or we don't.Can we feel the Spirit of God in us?Sometimes,but we can know he is there whether we feel his presence or not.God has promised to give us the Holy Spirit when we ask.We receiv the same Holy Spirit who raised Jesus Christ from the dead.God will use the same power in us to bring about our recovery.

What do I call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response? An excuse.If we pray the way Jesus Christ taught us,God will answer our prayers.(Rom.7:7-11)

[Guest MRose PD]

If one wrongly understands determinism and predestination, there is the possibility of passivity in prayers.

The belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response is predestination. If one believes in this, then , one can only pray with passivity, always subjecting to "Thy will be done", without having undergone any struggle or wrestle with God. I guess, one just have to remember and take note always of God's promises, rules and teachings, to be able to wrestle with God. God can also be irrationally emotional at times I guess, like humans. We come from Him after all. Once in awhile, He probably needs to be reminded, in order to consider favorably our prayers.

Come to think of it. I never thought of this before. Now I know that if deep within my heart, something is constantly disturbing me and making me want it, then I should be persistent in asking God for it, invoking all possible reasons why God should just give or approve it. The reasons must have good basis though and planted in integrity.

[Don W]

I believe in the predestination of God determining all of our actions determining the outcome of our lives, but add to this the free will God has given us to use for His honor and glory (or otherwise, but in all things they will ultimately be used for His glory in some way or other that we cannot always see or know), and believe also that we must pray for God’s will to be done in our prayers. But I also believe that there is power from the Holy Spirit in our prayers (if they are according to God’s will) to ultimately do the will of the Lord in them, but to bring both of these together is beyond our knowledge of God and His mysterious ways. I think that God will answer our prayers but only according to His will and purpose here in heaven and earth, but many times we don’t know what this is in our lives nor in the lives of others we pray for them so we really don’t know if our prayers change God’s responses or our own responses to His will and purpose for us, but I believe the latter is true because otherwise He wouldn’t be the God who knows everything about us and the world that we live as well as His perfect will in our lives. Our prayers do make a difference because He wills for us to pray, but not in His responses to our prayers but rather to our responses to Him as His will and purpose in our lives. That is why we need to pray “gutsy prayers” to God but know that they will be answered by Him only according to His will for our lives so we must accept His “no” or “maybe” answers as well as His “yes” answers to our prayers because they are according to His will and purpose for us as His children speaking to our heavenly Father. It is hard if not impossible to put the two theological concepts of predestination and free-will together but we do know that they both exist and have been given to us from His Holy Word, the Holy Bible. Those are really non-believing prayers when the person praying them doesn’t think that prayer will make any difference to God nor themselves; but we must believe that our prayers will make a difference in our lives or we may as well stop praying altogether in them. As I read some of the other answers to this question I got to thinking why is praying to do God's will and to accept it in our lives considered being a "whimpy" prayer-thing? It isn't whimpy at all but rather the strongest, most powerful thing we can say and do in our prayers, and is exactly what God told us to do in all of our prayers to Him! I just studied the "disciples' prayer" in Matthew 6 and one of the precepts of this prayer which the Lord Jesus taught us to pray was to pray that "God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven" and there is nothing more powerful then that! And that's exactly what we should be praying in all our prayers, and is exactly what is going to happen in our lives here on earth as well as in heavenly glory! Amen and Amen!

[AngelOnLine]

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed?

The wrong belief in predestination could stop us from praying at all. If we believe that we have been predestined to either Heaven or hell, then why bother

What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

I know without a doubt that God answer

[Patsy Laycoax]

A wrong understading of determinism and predestination keeps us from the gutsy prayer Moses prayed because we will have the attitude what will be, will be. We won't have faith that prayer will change circumstances. But when we pray gutsy prayers we must know we are praying God's will because somehow we know it is or else we have to say thy will be done.

I call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response,unbelief.

God always has a response even if it is to change us. Amen?

[Cherlyn]

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

If we do not pray the kind of gutsy prayer as Moses we are not acting in a faithful trusting manner. Clearly Moses prayed in a way that God heard his heart and relented. If we have the attitude that our prayers make no difference and that everything is going to happen the way it will, we are not living, we are but puppets-existing.

If I thought my prayers made no difference, I would be hopeless.